Another rescue of the clueless

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I am actually wondering about another detail mentioned in the article, according to which the hiker "ignored the advice of officials from the Appalachian Mountain Club and Fish and Game not to attempt a 35-mile, four-day hike". How did he get to talk to AMC and F&G? I imagine they didn't wait for him at the trailhead, so he probably inquired about the hike, maybe shortly before he set out on it. If so, he might have been suffering from a case of "hiking fever" as he possibly traveled from Toronto and did not want to go back "empty-handed".

I also wonder about how he was advised by AMC and F&G. Perhaps the reporter was referring to the AMC and F&G websites that advise against solo hiking in general? Or, he might have just happened to meet them at the trailhead? Or, the advice came in hindsight after the rescue?
 
I also wonder about how he was advised by AMC and F&G. Perhaps the reporter was referring to the AMC and F&G websites that advise against solo hiking in general? Or, he might have just happened to meet them at the trailhead? Or, the advice came in hindsight after the rescue?

Yeah, ignoring advice isn't necessarily reckless as it depends upon the advice. Some people really enjoying saying 'I told you so' though. The confirmation bias makes it hard to recognize how frequently we are wrong when we give bad advice, and ignore good advice. From an 'art of persuasion' standpoint, telling someone not to do something is a poor strategy. It's akin to arguing by conclusion in lieu of presenting an actual argument. If there was concern about the hiker's ability, then ask about his gear and if he knows how to us it (especially the stove). Make your argument and let the person decide. People should be free to make their own decisions, but with the best available information.

I don't generally solicit advice on the trail, as the subjectivity tends to make it worthless. I do research for my hikes, so I generally don't have questions. The questions I do have tend to be around campsite conditions. I prefer to seek out objective information, such as if a trail was broken out, if there was a view, etc. In my experience people tend to overstate 'problems', which I usually attribute to their own inexperience or their lack of understanding of my experience. When I talk to people I'm usually more curious about their itinerary and how much they've enjoyed it to see how it compares to my experiences, and sometimes making suggestions (such as tagging Mt. Hight, which some people don't know it spectacular for very little extra effort).

On the flip side, if I ran into someone I was convinced was going to get hurt or die I would probably try to have a conversation about risks and decisions to make, but in general I give most people the benefit of the doubt. The percent of people who die in the Whites (excluding medical conditions) is so low that the odds are that they'll make it back, though perhaps with some difficulty. We've all learned a lot in the woods, sometimes the hard way. We do things differently as a result, and with an understanding of why.
 
Yeah, ignoring advice isn't necessarily reckless as it depends upon the advice. Some people really enjoying saying 'I told you so' though. The confirmation bias makes it hard to recognize how frequently we are wrong when we give bad advice, and ignore good advice. From an 'art of persuasion' standpoint, telling someone not to do something is a poor strategy. It's akin to arguing by conclusion in lieu of presenting an actual argument. If there was concern about the hiker's ability, then ask about his gear and if he knows how to us it (especially the stove). Make your argument and let the person decide. People should be free to make their own decisions, but with the best available information.

I don't generally solicit advice on the trail, as the subjectivity tends to make it worthless. I do research for my hikes, so I generally don't have questions. The questions I do have tend to be around campsite conditions. I prefer to seek out objective information, such as if a trail was broken out, if there was a view, etc. In my experience people tend to overstate 'problems', which I usually attribute to their own inexperience or their lack of understanding of my experience. When I talk to people I'm usually more curious about their itinerary and how much they've enjoyed it to see how it compares to my experiences, and sometimes making suggestions (such as tagging Mt. Hight, which some people don't know it spectacular for very little extra effort).

On the flip side, if I ran into someone I was convinced was going to get hurt or die I would probably try to have a conversation about risks and decisions to make, but in general I give most people the benefit of the doubt. The percent of people who die in the Whites (excluding medical conditions) is so low that the odds are that they'll make it back, though perhaps with some difficulty. We've all learned a lot in the woods, sometimes the hard way. We do things differently as a result, and with an understanding of why.

You make some great points there, in regards to seeking advice. One day, I woke up in Yosemite after a 5 inch snowfall. Halfway up Mt. Dana (13,004) I ran into not one, but two groups who had bailed on the summit attempt. They advised me that conditions were not good at all. It gave me pause, but I felt in control. Turned out, the fresh snow added to the route finding a little but it wasn't that bad. By the time I summited, it was crystal clear and I had the mountain to myself. I guess that's the difference between, growing up climbing Mt. Washington and growing up in CA.:p
 
Unless things have changed at AMC, calling for their advice was a hit or miss experience. There is usually someone knowledgeable at the desk but they also hire sales folks who may be well meaning but not very experienced. if calling later in the evening they may get the Joe Dodge lodge front desk person and that job tends to be revolving door due to the hours. I expect the experienced person would be very hesitant to give a thumbs up to 4 day winter solo trek. I expect F&G would also be quite hesitant. I think they both would tend to be quite conservative. This approach in and of itself may encourage some folks to head out anyhow.

For every story about pressing on regardless where the weather ended up better than the forecast I expect there are far more incidences where it gets worse than expected. I have been caught several times in the winter where a front was scheduled to come over area the next day and the winds came in early. I tend to risk it a lot more often in the spring summer and fall then the winter as the consequences are far worse.
 
:)

The VERY FIRST change I observe in myself with mild hypothermia (i.e. feeling chilled, not even shivering; so perhaps 0.5 degree core temperature drop) is social withdrawal. I stop interacting with others, stop participating in the conversation. I lose personality.

OMG. And all these years I've believed I was simply antisocial when I was actually mildly hypothermic. Who knew? Someone get me a coat; I've got a party to go to.
 
I mean, people might look at you a little funny at first, sweating profusely in your puffy, but once you open your mouth they'll be magnetically drawn to your charisma and wit. Totally worth it!
 
I expect the experienced person would be very hesitant to give a thumbs up to 4 day winter solo trek. I expect F&G would also be quite hesitant. I think they both would tend to be quite conservative.

So, why would a 17 year-old from Toronto bother to ask AMC and F&G for advice, then ignore it?
 
I'm going to speculate here, so give me some rope. What if he was so inexperienced that he had no idea what he was getting into at all. Furthermore, with that lack of knowledge or any understanding of the potential dangers, he simply couldn't even register the warnings as real. When I think back to when I started, granted I was even younger. I took on trips that were way above my paygrade and had absolutely no idea at the time. In fact, I thought I was being careful and ready to go. Youth, exuberance and a taste for adventure, frankly that's all it takes to get him where he was. If this is the case and he was reading this? I'd have two comments. One, been there done that. Second, take a course or class somewhere, it just may save your life, as well as make your trips fun. Mountain Climbing is unlike most sports, as you can actually die doing it, not like golf. To quote Hemmingway, " There are only 3 sports: Bullfighting, motor racing and mountaineering: all the rest are merely games"
 
I'm going to speculate here, so give me some rope. What if he was so inexperienced that he had no idea what he was getting into at all. Furthermore, with that lack of knowledge or any understanding of the potential dangers, he simply couldn't even register the warnings as real. When I think back to when I started, granted I was even younger. I took on trips that were way above my paygrade and had absolutely no idea at the time.

This would be my guess if I had to pick one based on the few details.

Imagining that were that case, I've been there, done that as well. People with a sense of adventure, especially young people sometimes just dive in, bull headed, ignoring advice. He's 17. I was all those things by nature at that age. It's good he's not hurt and has a learning experience. I don't understand the thirty year olds with no sense, but I give him a break.

I mean, people might look at you a little funny at first, sweating profusely in your puffy, but once you open your mouth they'll be magnetically drawn to your charisma and wit. Totally worth it!

I like it. It's a plan. I'll find my old Kangol hat. It'll be like Buffalo, 1987 again. Tricky.
 
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What if he was so inexperienced that he had no idea what he was getting into at all. Furthermore, with that lack of knowledge or any understanding of the potential dangers, he simply couldn't even register the warnings as real.

That could explain why he ignored the advice. But it doesn't explain what advice was given, when it was given and why it was given. I guess I'm more interested in learning if AMC and F&G could have done something differently to prevent this event.
 
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2.6 miles? ???

I know the article states that he climbed 2.6 miles, but given that this would be Liberty Springs Tentsite, and the unlikely plan to start a pemi-loop from Liberty Spring, I wonder if he hiked from Lincoln Woods via Oseo Tr. and camped at Liberty Springs Tentsite. This might explain why he did not hike out on his own, as he was would be thinking it was a much further hike than it was, more like 7 miles.
 
I know the article states that he climbed 2.6 miles, but given that this would be Liberty Springs Tentsite, and the unlikely plan to start a pemi-loop from Liberty Spring, I wonder if he hiked from Lincoln Woods via Oseo Tr. and camped at Liberty Springs Tentsite. This might explain why he did not hike out on his own, as he was would be thinking it was a much further hike than it was, more like 7 miles.

I don't know that he did anything that made sense given the situation so it's a big assumption that he would have started the loop in a conventional way. And 2.6 miles is a pretty precise figure in the article so I assume they knew exactly where he threw in the towel. Of course this whole story makes no sense so I guess anything is possible....
 
I think it would somewhat explain the claim that he ignored advice. He could have stopped at the cabin at LW and talked to the people there and then headed out via Flume
 
The lad from Toronto needs to be integrated with some more experienced winter hikers familiar with the Whites. He has initiative and the desire for winter hiking/camping. I have had the pleasure of meeting Montreal natives on ADK peaks and at the Loj, accomplished outdoorsmen. Perhaps he is a little shy of approaching others.
Walt
 
The lad from Toronto needs to be integrated with some more experienced winter hikers familiar with the Whites. He has initiative and the desire for winter hiking/camping. I have had the pleasure of meeting Montreal natives on ADK peaks and at the Loj, accomplished outdoorsmen. Perhaps he is a little shy of approaching others.
Walt

AMC winter school is great first step.
 
That's what I wonder. Can't get the tent together, screw it, back out to the road (in like an hour), maybe run the heater in the car for a bit, sleep in the car.

Resurrecting this thread. The new Appalachia is out (Winter/Spring 2018) and this one made Accidents. He'd flown YYZ-JFK, bus to Hanover, taxi to the Flume parking. So he didn't have a car to bail to. That certainly changes the equation a bit: trying to thumb a lift on the Parkway in the dark the first week of January would not be a particularly fast or reliable way back to warmth and safety.

Lots more details in the report; worth a read. He was champing at the bit to go back out pretty much as soon as he came in...definitely somebody who bounces back with enthusiasm.
 
Fun fact: YYZ is pronounced Why-Why-Zed. Many know that already I'm sure living so close to Canada.

In Quebec province, wouldn't it be pronounced "ee-grec, ee-grec, zed?" But since YYZ is in Toronto, it would be pronounced "Why, Why, Zee." Except the pilots probably pronounce it "Yankee, Yankee, Zulu."
 
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