Are you confident in your hiking partners abilities to help you?

[coldfeet]

Nice to hear the advise....will ask about an orienteering class....guess I've been lucky and others have invited me to join them on hikes....i did try to learn while hiking but the goal that day was to hit the peak....need to try what JayH mentioned.....go somewhere for a weekend or day and learn the skills and practice.....I never tried that because the day i get to go out i just wanted to hit a peak.....

If there ever was a rule to this hobby, it should be.....learn how to use and read the maps for a good year and then go out into the woods...instead us new guys (me) just buy gear and drive somewhere and try to do what others have taken years to do and learn....take care and thx...

 

[Rik]

Nice to hear the advise....will ask about an orienteering class....guess I've been lucky and others have invited me to join them on hikes....i did try to learn while hiking but the goal that day was to hit the peak....need to try what JayH mentioned.....go somewhere for a weekend or day and learn the skills and practice.....I never tried that because the day i get to go out i just wanted to hit a peak.....

If there ever was a rule to this hobby, it should be.....learn how to use and read the maps for a good year and then go out into the woods...instead us new guys (me) just buy gear and drive somewhere and try to do what others have taken years to do and learn....take care and thx...

I don't think you need to read maps for a year before going out. Just start with easier stuff. Follow trails marked on the map to learn how what you see and what is on the map relates. Use your compass too. Sit on top of mountains with good views and use the map and compass to figure out what you are looking at. I love maps but reading them and not going out there doesn't sound very appealing.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

.will ask about an orienteering class....

David,

Google on "Long Island Orienteering Club". They're right in your back yard! They have events in Sunken Meadows!

BTW, I might be down that way this weekend.

 

[tonycc]

Nice to hear the advise....will ask about an orienteering class....guess I've been lucky and others have invited me to join them on hikes....i did try to learn while hiking but the goal that day was to hit the peak....need to try what JayH mentioned.....go somewhere for a weekend or day and learn the skills and practice.....I never tried that because the day i get to go out i just wanted to hit a peak.....

If there ever was a rule to this hobby, it should be.....learn how to use and read the maps for a good year and then go out into the woods...instead us new guys (me) just buy gear and drive somewhere and try to do what others have taken years to do and learn....take care and thx...

On a more serious note than my previous one above, you can learn these skills while walking on safely marked trails. I almost always have my map in my front pocket and I regularly look at it and figure out exactly where I am. Pull out the compass and use it to orient the map in the correct direction.

The people who I don't trust are the ones who never look at a map and rely on those around them to figure everything out.

Tony

 

[Nessmuk]

All skills can go out the window in an emgergency/survival situation. Panic has been known to kick in making one disbelieve thier compass and map. I have heard it called map bending. I have read of people smashing thier compass out of frustration because it was "wrong"

A good person to be in the woods with will be able to make a mental map as they go, stopping every so often to look behind them so they know what the woods will look like on the return. And when things get tough, sit down and stay calm. Panic kills. (I wonder if Panic and Cotton can unite to form deadly alliance?)

I've been with people in training (I, as a smiling bystander following their progress) who will ignore an obvious major object they observe right in front of them because it is not on the map where they think they are. "Everything else matches, so the map must be wrong" is what they say. They "bend the map" to force fit it to where they think they are instead of making logical sense out of it. The more tired they are the more likely this is to happen. Then they get more panicked, then they bend the map more, get more panicked, etc. Compound errors (errors based on previous errors) are the hardest to retrace and recover from.

I also stress to constantly look behind, particularly when in a location where trail or terrain is changing. I have stories about neglecting to do that too.

 

[Puck]

So how does one go about training another to be a good companion?

I have such a goal with my son. Get him comfortable with navigation, know first aid and survival. I usualy try to ge my kid to try these things. I get a response..."Dad you know where we are, why are youasking me?"

I told him that he will be responsible for planning a three day backpacking trip, trail slection, navigation, campsites, food, cooking...everything. I will only drive the car following his directions. I just know we are going to eat freeze dried food from EMS and cookies

 

[sapblatt]

I told him that he will be responsible for planning a three day backpacking trip, trail slection, navigation, campsites, food, cooking...everything. I will only drive the car following his directions. I just know we are going to eat freeze dried food from EMS and cookies

You are lucky you have a teenaged son who wants to eat freeze dried food and cookies with you! I hope to have the same in 10 years!

 

[Mad Townie]

Whenever I'm heading into the woods, the first thing I do (before starting) is check the map, look at where I'm planning to go, and figure out how the hell to get out of there if I have to.

Where are the roads? Where are the spots where those foolish little lines on the topo are really close together? Where are the blue lines long and wide enough to present a likely crossing problem? In other words, if I have to bail, what direction do I want?

Then I remember to bring my compass!

 

[timmus]

But now you've made me think.. If someone is hiking with me, are they putting faith in me knowing what I'm donig???!!!! Scarey thought! hmmmmm Maybe I'll write up a disclaimer and make people sign it before they hike with me.

Oh... That puts the Cliff/Redfield trip in another perspective. I thought I could have complete faith and trust in a half naked man walking around with an axe all the time.




About hiking partners, I don't like when they rely on me for their needs and security. That's why I go solo, or with experienced hikers who thinks the same.

I would probably be a bad leader, leaving people alone behind, not sharing extra food, doing extra miles when everybody else is tired...Of course, I don't know about CPR, and my orienteering skills are just enough to get myself out if I get lost.

But I always make sure I know where I am and where I go, so far I never got lost, and never got injured (that's luck, though, not skills).

Of course, I am a totally different type of hiker when I go out with my kids, but that's so obvious, nobody needs the details.

 

[Neil]

Coldfeet,
If you are out bushwhacking you will make sure you know pretty much where you are at all times and how to "get out".

One of my best map reading lessons was a result of a broken compass. My first compass was a cheap thing and the needle turned on a cristal or something. I convinced 2 friends to come bushwhacking with me in NW Ontario on the grounds that with my new Map and Compass skills we didn't need trails. We got out there and sure enough the compass didn't work. We spent 3 or 4 days wandering through the Canadian Shield using the map only. We did fine and REALLy got to know the map and the terrain.

Another lesson was in mapbending. More off trail stuff in the CDN Rockies. After having bent the map to its breaking point on a solo trip I experienced an interesting mental sensation when it suddenly snapped back to match reality. I couldn't believe how dumb I had been and that one experience taught me what no book ever will.

I have advanced first aid training, have taught first aid, and work in the health field. But, one thing that niggles at me in light of this thread is the correct decision making process in case of a backcountry emergency. Say there are two of you and one becomes immobilized, do you always wait until the 2 of you are reported miising and hopefully get rescued or does one go for help leaving the other behind? Or, does it depend on the circumstances (ie. serious head injury vs. broken ankle)?
In winter any other party members who remain out overnight with the victim risk becoming victims themselves.

 

[sleeping bear]

This is a pretty intersting thread. Here are my thoughts...

Having recently relocated here I've found myself for the first time hiking with people I don't know. I find this to be somewhat daunting. I'm never really sure what to expect. I do find this board very interesting to read, and it gives me an idea of what each person is all about.

I feel pretty confident in my own skills, and that others could rely on me in the event of an emergency. However, I wonder if those I hike with know me well enough to draw that same conclusion. Were I not so confident, I would seek out hiking partners that I knew I could trust or go with larger groups

But even then how do you know? People may seem fine, and then freak out under pressure, overestimate their abilities, or make poor decisions. Probably the ability to think rationally, exercise sound judgement, and make good decisions are probably your most important skills.

Since joining this site I've gone with a few other people on hikes that they planned. I've usually asked if I can tag along, to which everyone has been very welcoming, and I am really appreciative of that. However, if it was me, getting messages from someone I know nothing about, asking if they can "tag along", I might be a little wary. Who is this person? Personally, I like to know more about who's coming with me.

I will say though, that all of the hikes I've been on so far have been great. The people I've tagged along with appear to know their stuff, have it together, and a few have appreared aprehensive about hiking with a complete stranger (a good thing).

 

[sleeping bear]

So how does one go about training another to be a good companion?

I have such a goal with my son. Get him comfortable with navigation, know first aid and survival. I usualy try to ge my kid to try these things. I get a response..."Dad you know where we are, why are youasking me?"

If you're really serious, sign him up for a course through NOLS, Outward Bound, the Wilderness Education Association, or the AMC. There are many other life skills that come from being proficient in outdoor leadership.

 

[--M.]

Get Lost.

Since it hasn't really been said, I'll offer it: get lost.

Take a good map & compass out to a park of appropriate size (large enough to get lost in, small enough to find your way out of), stow the map & compass for an hour, and bushwack until thoroughly lost.

After you rediscover the truth about walking in circles, your orienteering skills will begin to emerge.

Also useful is at least one experience with a compass-bearing exit. Teddy Roosevelt used to take a compass and walk along a straight line, scraping politicians in tow, through whatever bog was in front of him. No deviations from the line were permitted, and he saw where he ended up. This and the 'follow-the-stream' method will work in certain circumstances.

I hope you have fun with this!

--M.

 

[king tut]

In summer hiking, i don't think you need a partner unless you have some medical conditions(i.e. heart problems, diabetes, etc.) that could cause problems. I do a good amount of my hiking by myself in the summer, out of convenience and i enjoy the wilderness solitude. Unless you are doing an extreme bushwack or something way out in the backcountry, then i don't see the need to have gps knowledge. I do 99% of my hiking on trails. Having others with you is nice if you want company, but i think the general public is way too paranoid about breaking a leg, getting eaten by a bear, getting lost in the woods, etc... The odds are that your drive to or from the trailhead is more dangerous than your hike.

Winter hiking is different though. I prefer to have someone w/ me on bigger hikes just because the footing can be unpredictable, the trail can be lost easily, and death from extreme temperatures can happen.

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

...Say there are two of you and one becomes immobilized, do you always wait until the 2 of you are reported miising and hopefully get rescued or does one go for help leaving the other behind? Or, does it depend on the circumstances (ie. serious head injury vs. broken ankle)?...

It definately DEPENDS!
If you've just started out on a 3 day backpacking trip and you're only 1/2 mile from the trailhead, you probably should go back for help when the victims immediate needs are taken care of. (Since the 911 call is 3 days away.)

If you're on your way out from a 3 day backpacking trip and you're hurrying because someone is going to call to report you missing in 6 hours when the mishap occurs, then it may be better to just wait for rescue, especially if it's going to take 4-5 hours to get out to get help. (Not much use if you didn't stick to your itinerary and are not where rescuers would expect to find you.)

There are many other possible variables, such as: type of injury, weather, detail of itinerary, other hazards, etc.

...In winter any other party members who remain out overnight with the victim risk becoming victims themselves.

That's why we should be prepared on every hike for the possibility of being out overnight.
Boy/Girl Scout motto: "Be Prepared"

 

[timmus]

Since it hasn't really been said, I'll offer it: get lost.

Take a good map & compass out to a park of appropriate size (large enough to get lost in, small enough to find your way out of), stow the map & compass for an hour, and bushwack until thoroughly lost.

After you rediscover the truth about walking in circles, your orienteering skills will begin to emerge.


--M.

I totally agree with that.

At age 15, my father pushed me in that little game, near my uncle cabin up north. It was a perfect spot : 10 square Km area, surrounded by a lake, a road, and a brook coming down a mountain. I intentionnally got lost, and tried to find my way out with a map and compass. Couple of hours later I was back at my uncle's cabin.

But I must say, when you're 15, life sucks, so I didn't care much about getting out or not.

 

[Nessmuk]

Since it hasn't really been said, I'll offer it: get lost.

Take a good map & compass out to a park of appropriate size (large enough to get lost in, small enough to find your way out of), stow the map & compass for an hour, and bushwack until thoroughly lost.

After you rediscover the truth about walking in circles, your orienteering skills will begin to emerge.

I'm one of several instructors in a trek leader/guide training program. My students are usually college age types, many come with less outdoor experience than you might think. They've had the "theory" discussion and some point practice before their final field evaluation. I'll run my group of students through a pretty awful bushwhack with map and compass, using gps is not allowed. I don't participate in navigation decisions at all in this phase, I just follow the pack. Some of them get it, most don't right away. We almost always get "lost" or at least they will be severely navigationally challenged. Usually after a couple of hours, more or less, we eventually come to terrain they can recognize without help. I wouldn't mind just letting them go until dark without finding our way back to the campsite. Its never had to go quite that far. Almost but not quite.

Perhaps more important than actually "getting lost", is the afterward debriefing discussion. Surviving panic and group indecision arguments have their own rewards, but otherwise if they don't go away understanding what happened then there is little point to doing it. At the end of the exercise I'll go over every step of the way where we were, show them how I continuously used terrain observation with map and compass to record our locations. I'll point out where we were, find out why the leader and others made the decisions they did, and analyze in detail what happened before the next day's outing. It can be quite eye opening. As any instructor knows, it's amazing and very rewarding to see the "light come on" when finally they "get it".

 

[sierra]

Good thread and some interesting thoughts by all. I think its imporntant to rely on yourself even in group situations. Let me explain, now I understand we all start as beginners but self reliance is key when in the backcountry, if everyone in the group is self reliant, you will end up with a strong group ready to overcome any situation by all contributing. As far as navigating, Im lucky I can navigate very well without aids for quite awile, my sense of direction is excellent. Ive cross country traveled in the Sierras and been lost in CO and always find my way in a decent amount of time. I once got lost bushwacking with a fellow rockclimber, we where out there for some time when I asked him, how much food and water do you have in your pack? His response was, forget that, get me out today and soon!!! that is a good illustration of panic in an otherwise routine situation where clear thinking is all you need, yes I got him out that day.
Ive also been with guys on winter routes where decsions about weather and turning around where hotly contested, I remeber one time when the guys I was with where so set on continuing in adverse conditions,I left the group to descend ( they followed soon after) I know breaking up a group is ussally not the recommended thing to do, but would you stay with a group heading for certain disaster? its a question you all should think about, thats where self reliance can come in handy.
As far as medical training, I have zero, I would do my best to help someone but I am not a doctor, I could wing CPR, use duct tape and splints, drag someone if I had to, but an MD IM not.

 

[prino]

Interesting Post.... There are some good links at this site...US orienteering

 

[BorealChickadee]

puck and sapblatt- My teenage son is my best hiking partner and usually the only one. Since he was three he has led the way on hikes. I always had him find the trail markers even as a little guy. Some of it was my fear that I would get hurt and he might someday have to find his way out on his own(obviously not when he was three). Then geocaching helped with his GPS skills. Now he really needs to learn my new Rino. But I always try to get him to navigate even thoughhe has no interest in the preplanning. He's perfectly content to let me plan everything, except what book he will bring.


I've hiked with more experienced people and less experienced. I trust my son because in the end I know he would do anything to help me. With those I've met on the forums, I know that I've been lucky and have hiked or canoed with those I can trust explicitly to do whatever was within their physical capabilities. I hope others can feel the same aboaut me. I know I'd never leave anyone behind and feel strongly about not splitting up a group or if for logistics someone has to go ahead that they plan ahead to backtrack and help someone at a slower pace.

AS for navigation, I guess I might have to trust someone else for navigation if I had to, baut the thing is I wouldn't follow blindly anyway. I just have this thing about knowing that in the end I have to take care of myself. So I'd better know damn well where I am.