Avy bag saves a life at Stevens Pass

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sardog1

sardog1

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If it ain't snowin' there, we ain't goin' there.
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Thank you for sharing the two links. I had heard a little on the news this morning and the idea of losing (and then finding deceased) friends like that was sobering. I had wondered statistically how many people could possibly survive a tremendous avalanche, and how much good modern technology would really be. I likened it to what I've heard about CPR, that oftentimes it is more comforting to the family of the deceased that people tried. Another thing, how do probes actually go into avy-compacted snow? I also wondered about the costs of this potentially life saving equipment and in the case of beacons, thinking at least it helps recover the remains before snowmelt. We just don't have to give these scenarios much though in the east, do we.

A new friend from the Seattle area, who we met last summer while enjoying Rainier, was caught in a small avalanche in early winter, but that's the closest I've come to thinking about it. He's a back country enthusiast, so now I want to write him to learn more about what he and his friends think about when venturing out.

P.S. on my first Rainier attempt, we all wore beacons and were not even allowed out of Muir hut to go to the bathroom without them. (Mine wasn't working and the guides were not overly concerned about getting me one that was and I went out wearing it as a piece of "jewelry" -- feeling like a rebel.)
 
There's a reason it's called "Cascade Concrete". Most people outside the NW have probably never experienced snow that wet and dense, even before it slides downhill, compacts and freezes around you. (I've spent a substantial amount of time buried in it . . . equipped with an avalanche beacon, two-way radio, a foam pad, plenty of room to breathe, and someone's dog working hard to find me.)

Probes are of relatively limited utility. You need a massive amount of manpower to cover an avalanche field with probes as effectively as a trained beacon operator or a dog can do the job. And yes, the hard stuff is hard on probes, not to mention the depths at which people are often buried. In one big accident I know of in Alaska, probes failed and broke constantly. You use a probe when the subject isn't wearing a beacon, or the buried person is but you don't have one at hand, or to zero in on the body when you've located it with the beacon or a dog.

A guide that goes out in avalanche terrain with someone whose beacon isn't working properly, or who doesn't know how to use it efficiently, is a guide with a death wish. Who's gonna find the buried guide? :rolleyes:
 
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sardog1 said:
Snow enthusiasts split on use of avalanche survival aids
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Do avalanche air bags cause you to take risks you otherwise wouldn't?

Can they malfunction and suffocate you where you could otherwise breathe?

It sounds like they may not work very often but why is it bad to carry one?
 
If they do to some then I'd say they haven't got a clue. No one wants to be in an avalanche, not even with an avy air bag. The amount of injury you can sustain from crushing forces of compressed snow and hitting objects along the way is sobering.


RoySwkr said:
Do avalanche air bags cause you to take risks you otherwise wouldn't?
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Pretty strong product endorsement.

I've been on avalanche recoveries and once saw my dog and dear wife swept away in a slide - fortunately they were unharmed. Seems like a beacon, these bags and an avalung are worth consideration.
 
RoySwkr said:
Do avalanche air bags cause you to take risks you otherwise wouldn't?
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This question has been asked about every safety or rescue device... (eg seatbelts.)

Can they malfunction and suffocate you where you could otherwise breathe?
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Presumably if they break and obstruct your air supply.

It sounds like they may not work very often but why is it bad to carry one?
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Swiss statistics (since their introduction in 1990): "Of 295 people caught in avalanches while wearing airbags, 5.8% (17) died. In the same accidents, an additional 67 were caught without airbags, and the slide proved fatal for 25% (17). Based upon these numbers, wearing an airbag pack in Europe reduces your chance of dying by four times."*

Also, a Canadian study reports that 26% of avalanche-killed skiers died of trauma (tree, terrain traps, etc)*.

Most Swiss skiing is above timberline where trees aren't very common. Much North American skiing occurs within range of the trees...

So in NA, they will probably reduce the chance of your being buried if you are caught in an avalanche. Whether that reduces your chance of dying in an avalanche depends on a variety of factors.

* Airbag Packs Explode, Backcountry [Magazine], Jan 2012, p 28-30.

Doug
 
sardog1 said:
Yesterday, a party of 12 expert backcountry skiers was caught in a slide nearby (not the same slope). Three died and one survived by deploying an avy bag.
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The fact that she survived does not prove that the airbag saved her--it is possible that she would have survived without it... (Controlled experiments are, of course, impossible for such events.)

A safe statement would be that it probably saved her life.

Doug
 
DougPaul said:
The fact that she survived does not prove that the airbag saved her--it is possible that she would have survived without it... (Controlled experiments are, of course, impossible for such events.)

A safe statement would be that it probably saved her life.

Doug
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The slide carried her 2000 feet. She stated in a TV interview tonight that the bag saved her life. I'm inclined to accept that conclusion. One of the fatalities was found three feet from her according to her interview.
 
sardog1 said:
The slide carried her 2000 feet. She stated in a TV interview tonight that the bag saved her life. I'm inclined to accept that conclusion. One of the fatalities was found three feet from her according to her interview.
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People have survived similar avalanches without airbags.

It is simple logic: the airbag may have (or probably) saved her life, but her survival does not prove that it was essential.

I have no problem with her believing it, but the assertion is not provable.

Just being a stickler for correct logic...

Doug
 
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