Baxter State Park Rules

[Pig Pen]

You didn't have to tell us, it shows... One of reasons the rule is in place is b/c not everyone understands the value of good planning.

I don't really want to get involved in refuting gross speculation, but I'll make one point. The winter activities of concern are usually carried out on multi-day trips of 4-6 days. Such trips require thoughtful planning. Last minute decision making can often lead to further poor decisions. Adding people to a trip last minute increases the likelihood that a participant is not prepared. Planning trips last minute increases the likelihood that the group did not do its homework for a trip that requires a full commitment to self-sufficiency in a remote setting with little or no guidance.

As one of many examples I have:
In Feb. 2006 a group of four ice climbers had a last minute cancellation by one of their participants. Against park policy, they added a buddy the night before the trip. The buddy joined the group and assembled his sled and gear in the parking lot for the first time. The group started the 13 kilometer trip to Roaring Brook. What is that you say? It's 13 miles and not 13k? Who knew? Apparently not these folks b/c one of them told me it was way longer than the 13k they thought it was to RB. Anyway, they were woefully unprepared, the sled mentioned above crapped out several times along the route and two of them eventually limped in to RB late in the evening. They asked us for help b/c one of their buddies decided it was getting hard and that he should just lie down in the snow for a rest. Anyway, you see where this is heading. Of course, they are idiots for several reasons, but intense regulation is meant to be proactive to avoid such circumstances. Avoiding having people like that in the park in the first place has kept the winter emergencies astonishingly infrequent.

In a remote location that requires 1.5 days to get to the nearest road, prevention is much more useful than good extrication protocol.

Now ask me about the "you must stay at RB the first night" rule and you might get a different response from me...

spencer

Thank you for supporting my argument against the four person minimum. Those ice climbers would would have been much better off with an experienced group of three. But I'm talking about hiking not climbing.

If you read all of my stuff you would know that I have no problem with the Chimney Pond expedition type rules, so you are debating me on a subject that we agree on, except the 4 person minimum which you refuted yourself (Thanks).

I don't understand the point of this statement "One of reasons the rule is in place is b/c not everyone understands the value of good planning." When did I say that good planning is of no value? I am a psycho hiker. My stuff is packed, next to the door, and ready to go 24/7. When I have a day off I look at the weather the night before, see if I can get some beta on snow conditions, and use that information make a decision on where to go. Sometimes I don't decide until the morning of the hike. This is not "last minute planning", this is called good decision making based on good information. If the forecast calls for clear weather with low winds, I can go above tree-line. I'm saying that if I saw that a big high pressure area was going to parked over Maine for a couple of days, I could pick up my stuff, drive to Millinocket and safely hike Katahdin the next day. That's way better than arbitrarily picking a day two weeks in advance and then finding three guys like the guy you mentioned above.

 

[Pig Pen]

I can already see that my reign as Grand Puba of Baxter State Park is going to be a troubled one. The natives are getting restless.

 

[Tim Seaver]

In Feb. 2006 a group of four ice climbers had a last minute cancellation by one of their participants. Against park policy, they added a buddy the night before the trip.

Although if the regulations didn't require 4 people (or god forbid, that there were NO regulations), they wouldn't have had to make a last minute addition. It certainly can be argued both ways.

There are plenty of places on this earth where you can put yourself in much more danger than Baxter that are completely unregulated. Thank Zeus!

The good thing about Baxter's heavy-handed regulations is that is makes you appreciate all those other places that much more.

(As a side note, it would be nice if this could be discussed without veiled insults.)

Play Nice, Now!

 

[Mad Townie]

Ropes will no longer be required. We are hiking not climbing. Ropes add weight and nobody ever uses them. Extra weight in your pack is marginally more dangerous.

I'll address only this point. Usually I have a LOT more to say.

Where do you draw the line between hiking and climbing? If we'd had to bail on our "hike" last weekend, we would have been faced with a very "interesting" descent via a boilerplate gully that was fairly steep. We didn't need ropes on the ascent, but at least a running belay would have been the smart way to descend. Because we didn't have to bail, and because our plan was to descend Hamlin Ridge, we didn't need the ropes. But we brought them. I was probably the weakest hiker/climber in the group, which may tell you something about the guys I was with (one of whom has over 150 winter ascents of Washington under his belt, another of whom has climbed several peaks over 17,000 feet including Denali). Those guys thought ropes were a very good idea.

I carry stuff in my pack that I use only rarely: map, compass, matches, etc. I would no sooner think of leaving the ropes at base for a winter climb (oops, sorry, I meant "hike") of Baxter Peak than I would think of leaving other emergency safety gear behind. I certainly hope I never need any of that gear.

Spencer, I agree with you that the RB night rule doesn't make much sense--for you. For many of us, that's true. But for some who get a slightly later start than planned, or who get held up along the way, or who don't move as fast as they thought, I like the rule that prevents them from adding another 3.3 miles to the first day trip. (See, I really couldn't limit myself to just one point! )

 

[TomD]

I have done a couple of winter trips in Yosemite. Nothing too far or too strenuous; just a short stroll or ski down Glacier Point Road, then off trail for a short bit before setting up camp. Did it once with 3 of us, then two solo trips.

In winter, all you have to do is show up, get a free wilderness permit, make some small talk with the Ranger for a few minutes about gear, just so they have some clue that you are prepared and off you go. Given that it is a national park, the rules are pretty simple and no one seemed alarmed that I was alone. Now, if the weather was wretched, it may have played out differently, but I don't know that for sure. You do put a copy of the permit on your windshield and they check the cars every now and then to see if you are overdue. I presume they come looking for you if you are. No cel service in the area, btw.

An interesting contrast to BSP from what I gather from your posts.

 

[TomD]

I have done a couple of winter trips in Yosemite. Nothing too far or too strenuous; just a short stroll or ski down Glacier Point Road, then off trail for a short bit before setting up camp. Did it once with 3 of us, then two solo trips.

In winter, all you have to do is show up, get a free wilderness permit, make some small talk with the Ranger for a few minutes about gear, just so they have some clue that you are prepared and off you go. Given that it is a national park, the rules are pretty simple and no one seemed alarmed that I was alone. Now, if the weather was wretched, it may have played out differently, but I don't know that for sure. You do put a copy of the permit on your windshield and they check the cars every now and then to see if you are overdue. I presume they come looking for you if you are. No cel service in the area, btw.

An interesting contrast to BSP from what I gather from your posts.

ps. regarding the kms vs. miles story--a mixup between imperial units and metric units of force is what killed one of the Mars missions-a software mixup caused the spaceship to fly lower than it should and burned up a few hundred million dollars. DOH! See story on Wikipedia for Mars Climate Orbiter.

 

[SteveHiker]

this site lists BSP fatalities
http://www.katahdinoutdoors.com/bsp/fatalities.html

after reading that list, I'm surprised that you don't need a note from your cardiologist to gain admission to the park.

 

[Pig Pen]

this site lists BSP fatalities
http://www.katahdinoutdoors.com/bsp/fatalities.html

BSP asks two-week notice for Winter trips so Rangers know who's in the park, itineraries, etc

Chimney Pond and Nesowadnehunk Rangers don't leave the park every week ... they pick up updated trip plans at the Millinocket office whenever they're heading back into the park

many Winter teams set up trips with one summit day, hoping to save vacation time ... it's worth setting up an extra day or 4 or 5

you can always find fun stuff to do with extra days, or head home early if you get your hikes in

BSP Winter trips are usually the best trips every year ... nothing else in the northeast comes close

I wouldn't be whining if BSP wasn't such a great winter destination.

I don't even buy that the rangers need to know who is in the park, but even if they do, I don't think that two weeks lead time is necessary to accomplish that. They seem to be able to get the weather report in there every day, I 'm sure other communication is possible as well.

The extraordinary safety record is a function of the experience that they require to obtain permits, which I have kept in place as Grand Puba. I doubt that it has much to do with the requirement to ignore weather in trip planning, or the requirement to include an inexperienced hiker to reach a group of four.

 

[Stan]

Baxter State Park would have no part in paying for any SAR operation there, other than the incidental involvement of park staff as requested by the agency in charge of the operation. That agency is the Warden Service of the Maine Department of Inland Fisheries and Wildlife, which is legally responsible for managing SAR incidents in the state. I'm not saying that an operation could not be expensive, only that the expense will not fall heavily on the park's budget.

This may be correct about the budget but I don't believe the involvement of park staff is merely "incidental'. My impression is that staff get very involved in searches and rescues, getting started well before the long ride for rangers and others to arrive and often being the first on scene. I believe in one search a member of the park staff lost his life.

 

[McRat]

I have an instinctive aversion to excessive regulations. Yet, after visiting BSP last fall I would glady hike Katahdin in a tutu if the regulations so required.

The original thread title is excellent on many levels. Simply put - Baxter State Park rules.

 

[Tim Seaver]

after reading that list, I'm surprised that you don't need a note from your cardiologist to gain admission to the park.

SHHHHH! Don't give them any ideas!

 

[RoySwkr]

after reading that list, I'm surprised that you don't need a note from your cardiologist to gain admission to the park.

In the '70s winter rules required every person to have a physical before coming, and you had to supply the names of your own rescue party as the park was deemed not to have this capability. You also had to bring 50 garden stakes with flags to mark your route for return, ice climbing gear unless you were skiing, etc. They were all so stupid I never went to Baxter in winter. It seems the rules are actually getting better.

The Watermans wrote a pair of articles "Anthem for Katahdin" and "Requiem for Katahdin" giving the good and bad features of the way the park was run.

 

[Pig Pen]

... I doubt that it has much to do with the requirement to ignore weather in trip planning, or the requirement to include an inexperienced hiker to reach a group of four.

OK, that was a cheap shot, I officially resign as Grand Puba. Plus, apparently I don't even know how to spell Poohbah. (Thanks TS)

 

[Tim Seaver]

A Farewell to the King

From Wikipedia:

From Grand Poobah is a term derived from the name of the haughty character Pooh-Bah in Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado. In this comic opera, Pooh-Bah holds numerous exalted offices, including Lord Chief Justice, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Master of the Buckhounds, Lord High Auditor, Groom of the Back Stairs, and Lord High Everything Else. The name has come to be used as a mocking title for someone self-important or high-ranking and who either exhibits an inflated self-regard, who acts in several capacities at once, or who has limited authority while taking impressive titles.

Well, Pig Pen, your reign was short, but I believe you ruled fairly.

You spoke of freedom and justice. In a land occupied by those who would cling to the false security of rules and bureaucracy, you had the courage to remind us of a time when men and women roamed free among the hills.

You'll be missed.

<sniff>

 

[Steve-o]

BSP pretty much Rules!
Shhhhhhh.

 

[sardog1]

This may be correct about the budget but I don't believe the involvement of park staff is merely "incidental'. My impression is that staff get very involved in searches and rescues, getting started well before the long ride for rangers and others to arrive and often being the first on scene. I believe in one search a member of the park staff lost his life.

I meant "appertaining to" a particular SAR mission and had no intent to trivialize the role of park staff in responding to one. Should have probably made that clearer, even though I didn't use "merely."

To my knowledge, the first bill from BSP for a SAR mission levied on the folks responsible was for $1500 in 2006. Not a very large sum in the context of a total park budget that exceeds $3 million, IMO. That was the point I was trying to make in response to the statement that the rules were promulgated to minimize BSP budget impact.