Berry picker shot by bear hunter in VT

[NewHampshire]

Brain I should have been more clear we were talking about laws in gerneral not NH but it was proposed in NH.
Sorry about the confusion in MA it is mandatory .
Also I did want to sat that one youpull the trigger you cannot bring the bullet back.
Ultimatly it is the shooter who bears full responsbilty, to both identify and have a clear and as FN noteed clean kill shot .
to do other wise is slob hunting as it is called in the hunter lexicon .
My family owns wood land we have banned huniting due ot slob hunters and a pet was shot he thought a cat was a deer ok nitwit . Yes he was drunk yes he is serving time in the state prison . No he was not from out of state . Yes our property is posted as NO HUNTING .

Its OK RFG1, I wasnt directing my comments at you in particular, rather just throwing out some observations. I understand what you mean about bad hunters. My Uncle owns a fair size chunk of property. He is also a very active hunter/shooter. He refuses to post his property simply because he wants anyone who wants to to share his enjoyments. HOWEVER, he himself has already had a few incidents that have him sometimes questioning his decision not to post his property. Its sad, but there are some people that disgust the whole hunting community (and I agree with mudhook51 that poachers are scum.) Oh well, as long as their are rules for "Fair Chase" there will be someone lining up to break them . Thankfully they are far and few between.

And on that note Ill take this moment to plugg the NH Fish and Games Operation Game Thief program, aimed at catching poachers. Here is the link:
Operation Game Thief

Brian

 

[Lawn Sale]

As to it not being the responsibility of the picker (or hiker) to wear blaze orange clothes...again, who is the one that's dead?

I don't care if it's my responsibility or not, it's just common sense.

I have seen my fair share of bad hunters, and even walked away from areas where there were too many hunters.

I teach hunter safety for the State of Maine, and enjoy hunting. I also don't think it's "something to prove", like New Hampshire mentioned, that's just a poor way of looking at hunting. Hunting is simply habitat management, and trust me, we need the management (look at the coastal islands if you think otherwise), not something to prove, an ego trip, or a rite of passage.

These people who hunt on sound should have the book thrown at them, in my estimation. And anyone who hunts while intoxicated should...never mind, I'm getting riled up again, apologies.

Look, it's this simple, it's just common sense to wear orange in the woods during hunting season, the more the better.

 

[RGF1]

As to it not being the responsibility of the picker (or hiker) to wear blaze orange clothes...again, who is the one that's dead?

I don't care if it's my responsibility or not, it's just common sense.

I have seen my fair share of bad hunters, and even walked away from areas where there were too many hunters.

I teach hunter safety for the State of Maine, and enjoy hunting. I also don't think it's "something to prove", like New Hampshire mentioned, that's just a poor way of looking at hunting. Hunting is simply habitat management, and trust me, we need the management (look at the coastal islands if you think otherwise), not something to prove, an ego trip, or a rite of passage.

These people who hunt on sound should have the book thrown at them, in my estimation. And anyone who hunts while intoxicated should...never mind, I'm getting riled up again, apologies.

Look, it's this simple, it's just common sense to wear orange in the woods during hunting season, the more the better.

It seems like ereyone agrees on many things It might make sense to wear Blaze orange but ultimatly the responsbilty of what a person in this case hunters , does with a weapon is thiers and thiers alone . If you cannot positivily Identfiy your tatget do not fire. if you cannot make a clean kill shot do not fire. If some one needs to see blaze orange to let them know that what they see is not game they should not be hunting.
I agree that they should have the bok thrown at them . In NH "that book" is thin and usually all that happens is the person loses the privlage to hunt. and can petition to have it reinstated. If you did 20 years or more off state time if you took a persons life while hunting there would be almost no "accidents "at all.
Where intented or not by saying you should wear blaze orange you have shifted some responsibl;ity to any one who is not wearing blaze orange.
One thing I recall being taught about firearms is once you pull the trigger you cannot take the bullett back .

 

[yardsale]

I agree with lawnsale (my cousin?) and want to focus in on a theme here. It is fine and dandy to argue abstract issues of responsibility, and perhaps we should be workinig via the legislative process to tighten up hunting laws, although I think hunter safety issues are small potaoes when viewed in the larger context of gun violence in the US. (Just visited a Canadian national who has cancelled her camping trip to the US for fear of traveling in the rural south... you know how dangerous traveling in foreign lands can be.) (Is this your idea of focusing, Nick?)
Anyway, the question for me is what do I do to maximize my safety when I go into the woods. For me, the clear, unambigous response is to wear blaze orange over my entire upper body, visible from 360 degrees, and not be in the woods around dawn and dusk. I can control no ones behavior but my own.

 

[NewHampshire]

Anyway, the question for me is what do I do to maximize my safety when I go into the woods. For me, the clear, unambigous response is to wear blaze orange over my entire upper body, visible from 360 degrees, and not be in the woods around dawn and dusk. I can control no ones behavior but my own.

VERY well said. I just want to expand a bit on the conversation. Everyone is focusing on the hunter mistaking a person for game. But another positive benifit has to do with identifying someone in the background. What I mean by this is that, with hunter orange, you can be seen at surprisingly far distances. When you have an animal in your sights the blood and adrenalin are pumping and everything blurs together. If you, wearing blaze orange, are anywheres in the near distance it makes it easier to identify you and for the hunter to either pass up the shot or not for simple safety. A good example of this comes from the bowhunters safety course I took. IN it we were brought out into the woods where decoy animals where placed. We were asked "would you shoot?" Everyone observed closely, the "animals" looked like they were clear of any brush or hazards. The resounding answer was "YES!" Thats when the hunter safety instructor, decked in full camo and hiding in a bush 20 yards away behind the decoys poped out. Now obviously it was an exaggerated example as in a real situation the instructor would have made his presence known by whistling or speaking. But it just shows that in the woods it can be that much harder to pick out distant objects, and how blaze orange can make the difference.
Brian

 

[SteveHiker]

I call urban legend. Never happened.

-dave-

I agree. That's a good site to check for any tall tales you might hear.

However, there was a case maybe 10 or 12 years ago, when an Arabian horse grazing in a pasture in Alstead, NH was shot by deer hunters. (I'm not sure where they were from but I'm guessing from one of the more urban areas to the south).

 

[sun=electric]

oh please!

Having traveled to Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Paraguay, Peru, Venezuela and Canada, I would say the personal safety level in Canada and the USA is virtually the same! I lived in NYC for 4 years and never had any problems. I was in the projects at midnight, by the old CBGBs in the dark of night and also been the first backcountry camper allowed in after a fatal grizzly attack in Glacier and I don't know what you are talking about when it comes to gun safety as if it is something to consider avoiding southern USA. I also have been to back road bars in Newfoundland, so you know what I mean about the personal safety level in Canada and the USA! I do not hunt, but own guns and I avoid taking long walks on my own Adirondack 100 acres in hunting season. Why? Since hunting is part of local life (as is crossing the road on Labor Day weekend) you need to use common sense. Yes there are morons who hunt (drive, vote etc) with bad results (I have called the police) but all this is part of a very wide picture on use of our land.
Peace

 

[RGF1]

What I mean by this is that, with hunter orange, you can be seen at surprisingly far distances. When you have an animal in your sights the blood and adrenalin are pumping and everything blurs together. If you, wearing blaze orange, are anywheres in the near distance it makes it easier to identify you and for the hunter to either pass up the shot or not for simple safety. A good example of this comes from the bowhunters safety course I took. IN it we were brought out into the woods where decoy animals where placed. We were asked "would you shoot?" Everyone observed closely, the "animals" looked like they were clear of any brush or hazards. The resounding answer was "YES!" Thats when the hunter safety instructor, decked in full camo and hiding in a bush 20 yards away behind the decoys poped out.

If a hunter is thet fired up to kill something he should not be hunting period. . How hard is this who ever fires the weapon is respnsible period no Damn excuse . if you cannot identify yout target or are to hyped up to kill something you do not belong hunting period . If you kill some one Do hard time . I could care less what happnes to you in state prison you just wanted to kills something and have your deer . That is not hunting . Stop the excuses there are none., I know what a deer looks like I know what a berar looks like Ii know what a person looks like stop the exicuses there are none .I am getting the feeling that some are blaming the victim for a over zealuos hunters excuse for shooting at what ever moves . There are none if you cannot identiofty the targer DO NOT SHOOT!! How hard is that. If you are so fired up you have to shoot at any thing you should not be hunting period. No EXCUSES If you cannot positivly identify your targer do not shoot if you must kill somethig go to a game ranch where they bait the game and you can blast way and get your trophy and game . There is no excuses the hunter is responsible period! NO excuses either know what you are doing identify your target or do not shoot. No excuse . If you kill some one I think you shoud do life If this was the case there would be very few "accidents" as hunter would be much more careful for fear of beinbg loclked up hunting is a privalge not a right . The attitude of some will end that priviledge .

 

[NewHampshire]

RFG1, take a deep breath and calm down

1: NO ONE is trying to blame, or implying blame, on the part of the victim. All we are doing is discussing ways to keep ourselves safe.

2: Its not about "blasting away" or "overzealous." Its called adrenalin, its very real, its very serious, and it happens to EVERYONE (Not just hunters.)

3: No one is implying that a hiker should wear blaze orange so the hunters dont have to be less carefull.

4: It IS the responsibility of the hunter to identify all possible hazards and respond accordingly. What I, and everyone else, is trying to say is that we as hikers can take precautions to FURTHER ALONG the safeguarding of our safety.

5: Refer back to #1.

Ok, you calmed down yet?
Brian

 

[Lawn Sale]

Yardsale, I was thinking the same thing...(location?).

RGF1, I agree it's the hunter's reponsibility, but you're making a HUGE leap if you assume he's going to be 100% responsible before he pulls the trigger. He will when he kills someone, I just don't want to be the one he killed. You are also trying to legislate morality, and we all know that can't work, there are a lot of idiots out there.

I equate this to driving a motorcycle. Sure, I wear a helmet, gear, and am a safe driver, but that doesn't mean everyone else on the road is safe, so I have to be forever on my guard. I would have been killed years ago if I made such an assumption.

 

[Chip]

Wait a second...

Statistically you're somewhere around 30 times more likely to die of a head injury from a fall than by firearms. So while accidental hunting-related deaths are horrible and precautions should be taken, you'd be better off wearing a helmet in the woods than hunter orange. You're also much more likely to die in a deer/moose car accident or drown than by being shot. So wear a helmet, slow down and stay out of the water, but don't change your hiking plans.

"Approximately 9,000 Canadians die annually of unintentional injuries, about 5% of all deaths. This review focuses on the seven leading causes of death from household and recreational injuries, namely, falls (21%), drownings (6.4%), burns and fire-related injuries (4.8%), suffocation (4.7%), poisonings (4.7%), bicycle/sports-related deaths (1.7%), and firearms (0.7%)."

 

[BrentD22]

%?

"Approximately 9,000 Canadians die annually of unintentional injuries, about 5% of all deaths. This review focuses on the seven leading causes of death from household and recreational injuries, namely, falls (21%), drownings (6.4%), burns and fire-related injuries (4.8%), suffocation (4.7%), poisonings (4.7%), bicycle/sports-related deaths (1.7%), and firearms (0.7%)."


I wonder of all the people accidentally shot what % die? I'm sure that for example every time someone falls down they don't die. More like maybe every million times when someone falls down it's serious enough that someone dies (maybe even more like 1 billion). What I'm trying to say is that I'd rather take my chances without a helmet, but during hunting season I'm not willing to take the chance on not wearing orange!

 

[RGF1]

Yardsale, I was thinking the same thing...(location?).

RGF1, I agree it's the hunter's reponsibility, but you're making a HUGE leap if you assume he's going to be 100% responsible before he pulls the trigger. He will when he kills someone, I just don't want to be the one he killed. You are also trying to legislate morality, and we all know that can't work, there are a lot of idiots out there.

I equate this to driving a motorcycle. Sure, I wear a helmet, gear, and am a safe driver, but that doesn't mean everyone else on the road is safe, so I have to be forever on my guard. I would have been killed years ago if I made such an assumption.

Please explain what you mean legislate morality? If you are infering that hunters should not do time if they kill or wound some one. I think my self and many others would take excpetion. Yes it is good to be safe but the burden is entierly on the hunter no one else not not hikers , not a pet berry pickers people hanging out thier luandry and so on nothing but the person pulling the trigger. Lets look at it this way if a person kills some one in a auto accidernt they will possibly be charged with some sort of crime and will possibly do some time . Hunting is a sport and not even nessary. if some one is killed due to a person persueing their sport I think the killer should do hard time.
It is not the equivlent of riding a motorcycle you choose wheather to drive or not you can also take defensive actions if some one is driving dangerously .with being shot by a hunter whom you may not see you do not have the choice some one else is making it the hunter is by bringing and using fiream into the forest . As a gun owner Iam fully responsible for what Ii do with it when I shoot I amm 100% aware every thing around me and what my background is even though it is on a firing range. I am the one using the deadly weapon Iam the one responsible for any thing that heppens if I do not use it properly, no one else .
My family owns a good sized chunk of land. On it there are among other things deer. I know full well what one looks like. I an tell the differnce between a deer and a person walking regardless of time of year. I can tell the diffence between a deer and a dog that has roamed on to the land.
I find it very hard to beliecve that people cannot distinguish the differnce between a deer , bear moose, and a human or a persons pet.
My hunting relative has said the same thing the good part is most hunters are not slob hunters and know what they are doing as well as being patient and careful about whwen and where the hunt most are very skiled and do not even take a shot if the target is moving.

 

[Chip]

"Approximately 9,000 Canadians die annually of unintentional injuries, about 5% of all deaths. This review focuses on the seven leading causes of death from household and recreational injuries, namely, falls (21%), drownings (6.4%), burns and fire-related injuries (4.8%), suffocation (4.7%), poisonings (4.7%), bicycle/sports-related deaths (1.7%), and firearms (0.7%)."


I wonder of all the people accidentally shot what % die? I'm sure that for example every time someone falls down they don't die. More like maybe every million times when someone falls down it's serious enough that someone dies (maybe even more like 1 billion). What I'm trying to say is that I'd rather take my chances without a helmet, but during hunting season I'm not willing to take the chance on not wearing orange!

Brent, those numbers are the deaths, so while it may take 100,000 falls and only 10 gun injuries to result in a death, you're still 30 times more likely to die from a fall than a gunshot, relative to all accidental deaths. Guns are like bears, worthy of caution and precautions, but not close to being the most deadly thing in the woods.

 

[Umsaskis]

Skimming over the enormous number of posts to this thread and the discussion over who is primarily responsible for avoiding accidents (hikers or hunters), I am reminded of a quote my mother gave me when teaching me to accomodate other driver's mistakes, and the consequences if I only focused on the fact that I was driving correctly and expected everyone else to do so as well:

"You were right. Dead right."

I think the same applies to hunters and hikers. Don't expect everyone to do what they ought, and take the necessary precautions.

 

[Tim Horn]

Hunters around PATN

If you are bagging PATN or hiking on the North Twin Trail be sure to wear your orange vests. We flushed a few hunters out setting bait and looking for sign of bear. So yes they are out there and it is up to us to keep ourselves safe. If you see hunters stop and talk to them and exchange rough plans. This can keep you out of there baited areas and shooting lanes. Thus making it safer for all involved. For the most part hunters understand why we are out there and have some respect for a person with a pack going into the woods. Treat them with courtesy and respect and hopefully they will return the favor. Wear your blaze orange. Peace All

 

[NewHampshire]

Ho hum. This debate really is getting off track despite the efforts by Lawnsale and Yardsale and I. Im NOT making excuse for ANY negligence by ANY hunter. If you think I am (hello NH Mtn Hiker ) then your wrong and I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Look, no stupidity is excusable. Period. You kill someone in the woods you deserve every bit of legal fallout you get. But trying to wax philisophical about how hunters "should not this and that" is getting tiresome. Lets face it, every 21+ year old that goes out to a bar should know better than to drink and then drive, but there are idiots that do it EVERY DAY! Well, there are idiots in the woods with guns too but, (thankfuly) like the drunk driver they are very few (actually your more likely to be killed by a drunk driver, which is a testament in and of itself.) The entire point that most of the posters here are trying to put forth is that adding orange to your attire is a simple safety "suggestion." You dont want to wear orang in the woods, then fine. Its your right and your perogative, just come out and say you dont. But quite hiding behind the whole "why should I wear orange its the other guy who is supposed to be safe" attitude. If you want to to come walking through my hunting area, in orange or not, then go ahead. Its not guys like me or Yardsale and lawnsale you need to worry about. I hope no one ever, ever, ever, EVER has to go through what the berry picker did. But if you want sympathy from me should it happen despite the precautions we here suggested, then your outta luck. Red square me if ya want, but its the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. So go ahead, I can take it like a man.
Im done with this thread.
Brian

 

[yardsale]

Here is what I wear--a simple orange tee large enough to cover all my functional clothing
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...5?_encoding=UTF8&n=1036682&s=apparel&v=glance

 

[Shewolf]

I'm not sure this is the forum to debate whether or not hunting is necessary. Having grown up in a household that hunted, it's a subject I'm well acquainted with as well as safety precautions taken during hunting season both as a hunter and a non-hunter.

It has been pointed out by numerous folks that it is ultimately the responsibility of the hunter to determine what he/she is shooting is indeed game and not human. BUT, I don't always depend on that individual's judgement for various reasons.(again, previously mentioned by others) While i feel I have every RIGHT to take my dog in the woods for a walk, I don't during hunting season because his size and coloring could have him mistakenly identified by a legally blind hunter, even with the Florescent orange vest I have for him. Why take the chance?

Anyhow, we all take precautions in our everyday lives such as wearing seatbelts, wearing helmets while riding bikes, and looking both ways down one way streets...why not take common sense precautions while hiking in areas where hunters may be present. Just a thought.

FYI, during primative weapons season (bow and muzzleloader) hunters are not required to wear blaze orange in PA and NY. I'm not sure about NH, VT, MA or ME.

 

[BEUCS]

Understandable Frustration!

I've been reading through this thread and find myself thinking that we as hikers are generally very responsible for our safety while out hiking. Most of us carry the proper gear and food and have familialized ourselves with the hiking routes we'll be using, etc... So....
I understand the "Better safe then sorry" approach when dealing with being seen by a hunter but I also practice it begrudgingly. The idea that there's someone out in the woods raising a rifle to their eye, sighting down the barrel at their target, placing their finger on the trigger, and then squezzing off a round into a human ( hiker, berry picker, woman hanging laundry, etc...) really pisses me off. That I have to hike in fear of these people just plain sucks.