Boys Scout's have a problem

[Bob Smith]

I want to start off by saying that all troops are run by volunteers, wether they live in the Rockies, WMF, Adk's or The Bronx for that matter. Each troop should be run by the Senior Patrol (mostly 15,16 and 17 year olds) They decide on the program to a great part, and the adult leadership will point out options or provide advise. Some troops may attend one summer camp or some may attend several, it depends a lot on how much time adult leaders are willing to volunteer. BSA does provide training but not hands on like the AMC or the 46's as documented above for backcountry ethics. Again it involves adults willing to take courses like Wilderness First Aid, LNT, etc. Many hours and in most cases many $ not refunded to be able to provide a solid program. Most Councils provide a High Adventure program and voyagers that instruct both scouts and adult leaders if the troop chooses to attend these camps. My son's troop is blessed with several leaders who enjoy the outdoors and have gone the extra step in training. He has completed three 50 miles awards and a LNT award. The fifty miles involves http://www.meritbadge.com/awd/50miler.htm and the LNT involves http://www.meritbadge.com/awd/leavenotrace.htm Both my good friend and I have taken LNT and first aid as well as being certified to balay for rock climbing. This past summer we did a section of the Northville - Placid trail from Piesco to Lake Durant in 4 days, not one time did we have to tell the boy's anything. They set up bear bag's as soon as we arrived, purified water, set up camp, discussed the days travels and planned the next day's agenda and made diner. Not bad for a bunch of 15 year olds! They are currently planning a winter trip to Pok-O- McCready in the Dacks in February for ice climbing, snow shoeing a high Peak and overnight camp out and I get to go

 

[Barry Sr]

LNT is an important issue for anyone going into the woods, no question.

But isn't the real 'problem' with the Boy Scouts their policy of exclusion?

BSA v. Dale

Is this a can of worms you really want to open?

 

[Tenderfoot]

LNT is an important issue for anyone going into the woods, no question.

But isn't the real 'problem' with the Boy Scouts their policy of exclusion?

BSA v. Dale

Consider the can of worms open. BSA's adult leaders application form makes no mention of homosexuality. There are questions that seek information regarding the moral make-up of potential leaders including the use of illegal drugs, conviction of crimes and child abuse, but nowhere is there any mention of sexual preference. So it is possible for gays to be in positions to lead. The problem arises when an overtly homosexual person is in a position of leadership, AND IS ACTIVELY PROMOTING HOMOSEXUALITY OUTSIDE OF THE SCOUTS. The case cited involves a man who is a gay activist who was also a scout leader. My guess, and it is purely that, is that the involvement of this individual with scouting was to create controversy and self promotion. BSA is a private organization and can set its own standards for whom they see fit as leaders. For instance, girls aren't allowed to be scouts until they are 14 (Venturing, and women can serve in leadership roles). Faith in God is a requirement -- there was a recent case of an eagle scout candidate who was booted because he professed atheism. Anyway, the Supreme Court upheld the scout's right to set standards for their leadership. For what it's worth, there are government agencies that discriminate against homosexuals. The "Ask, don't tell'' policy of the armed forces is the most blatant example. And before anyone misinterprets my post as gay bashing, let it be said that one of my closest friends is gay, as is my favorite cousin who happens to be both gay and atheist, as well as an Eagle scout.

As for LNT, it is actively promoted within our cub scout pack. Our Cubmaster's Wood badge ticket involves LNT, and during outings LNT is reinforced. But, it should be noted that all cub scouts are under 11, and just keeping shoes tied and shirts tucked are issues. The boy scouts I've seen have all been committed to awareness of LNT, and follow its guidelines when in the woods.

 

[SherpaKroto]

Brickey, why not delete this thread before it spirals downward any further?

 

[Nadine]

I second the motion made by Sherpa. Let's stop this thread before it gets out of hand. There's plenty of other newsgroups where you can continue this conversation if you so desire.

Nadine

 

[Barry Sr]

Good idea, I just edited this post and deleted my rant. delete before I chew thru the duct tape and comment again.

 

[masshysteria]

I cannot speak for all Scout Councils, but in the Great Trails Council (W.Mass), all new leaders are trained in many aspects of scouting, including 'Leave No Trace'. The Boy Scouts have developed a very intensive training program in the recent years that teach leaders everything from LNT to backwoods cooking to indentifying child abuse.

When I was a young man in Scouting, the catch phrase was, 'leave it better than you found it'. That motto has stuck with me through these many years. On behalf of the Scouts in my troop, I apologize for the Scouts you saw who aren't following the Outdoor Code.

 

[Grumpy]

. . .
When I was a young man in Scouting, the catch phrase was, 'leave it better than you found it'. That motto has stuck with me through these many years. . . .

That is a very familiar slogan. I was in the Boy Scouts during the 1950s, and remained actively involved as a junior adult leader while in college during the 1960s. What is interesting, of course, is how the meaning of "leave it better than you found it" has changed or evolved.

Back in the days of my Scouting involvement most of the adults who led hiking trips had experiences connected with military service, and as what we used to call "woodsmen" -- hunters and fishermen. The pure hiker was a fairly rare bird, although my last Scoutmaster -- who I also hiked with extensively on non-Scout ventures during my college years -- was one. He was an Army vet but not a hunter or fisherman. But that's a digression.

Back then, it was considered proper to do things like leave a supply of firewood (preferably covered in some way) for the next camper, police up the area thoroughly, and burn and bury trash. That's what we understood "better than we found it" to mean. By the late '60s we had adopted a "carry it in - carry it out" approach to dealing with our trash, and we even carried out stuff left by others, which was a giant step toward adopting the then emerging LNT ethic. But I don't think the LNT business as we know it today really took hold, solidly, even in the general hiking populace until well into the 1970s.

Perhaps it is worthwhile to consider that many Scout leaders themselves grew up under influences that do not exactly match the highly evolved version of LNT that we know today. I know numerous enthusiastic modern "woodsmen" -- hunters and fishermen -- who probably aren't much or at all aware of LNT and what it's about. Many adults get involved with Scouting mainly because their own kids are in it, and don't bring a special interest in hiking with them (although they may develop it along the way). But they are good hearted souls, for the most part, and probably teachable if we have the patience and will take the time to bring them the word in a low-key, "hey, I'd like to be helpful" fashion.

Of course, there always will be the matter of dealing with exuberant and irksome high-spirited kids who often populate Scouting units. They are wholly capable of annoying me when I meet them in gangs out there. But then I remember that once upon a time and long ago I was one, myself, and that seems to salve things a bit.

G.

 

[BrentD22]

Jaytrek you are correct!

Brent

I think you may be confusing YOP's Outdoor Leadership Training with the Mountain Leadership School. YOP starts the training at the AMC Cold River Camp. All groups end at Lonesome. We never go near PNVC.



I do hope at least you changed the information on the medical forms.

On a side note: I noticed in your bio you are with a BGC. I run the Dorchester club. Perhaps a cross club adventure at some point?

Peace.

The other guy did complete his course, but could not attend something that took place on Joy St. in Boston. I did take part in a backcountry group leaders training out of PNVC. Like I said it was some time ago and the memory of it all was vague. I remember getting equipment from the basement and wishing I had access to the equipment in my own basement!

I think a cross adventure at some point would be great! Possibly my Keystone Club kids when weather warms up a little. I only have 5 members in Keystone now so it wouldn't be very difficult to coordinate.

Say hi to Mike Joyce for me!

 

[masshysteria]

Grumpy, that was very well put, and thought out. I couldn't have said it better!