"Bridge" camera purchase advice sought

[bikehikeskifish]

Before you are scared off by CHDK, consider that it does NOT replace the firmware in your camera. Instead, it causes the Digic processor to boot off the chip and load additional firmware. Thus, you can remove the bootstrap code from the chip, or make the chip read-write (and thus not bootable) and you are back to your original firmware.

I have several things about it I really enjoy:

1. Live histograms
2. Battery life in 0-100%, instead of nothing, nothing, REPLACE BATTERY, shutoff and refuse to operate.
3. RAW / DNG format
4. Grid overlay on the LCD - nice for composing things using the rule of thirds, for example.
5. Variable bit rate movie mode
6. Zoom in or out while shooting in movie mode
7. Scripting - I can display my name and e-mail address during boot-up in case the camera is lost. There are many other scripts that you can write, download, or that come with the camera. I have not yet used the auto-bracket scripts, but they exist and since I do this often by hand, I can see some value in it (more if I brought a tripod, which I don't do when hiking.)

These are all things the stock firmware in the A570-IS does not allow.

Tim

p.s. Disclaimer - I am an engineer. I like technology. Your mileage may vary, etc.

 

[Elizabeth]

A trade-off for super-zooms is that they have poorer optical quality than other lenses.

Primes (fixed focus, non-zooms) are best, small-range zooms are not as good, and super-zooms have even poorer quality.

Doug

Thanks, Doug. I was about to ask about the super-zooms. There seem to be a lot of them out there, and they tempt me. However, I would probably only wish I had access to super-zoom on relatively few occassions. And I don't want to sacrifice image quality the rest of the time.

With any camera you're considering, it's worth looking at sample photos online. "A picture is worth a thousand words"

I am on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/32876400@N08/) , and have looked up individual camera models there for samples. I have also checked out where the better photos are coming from in some of the Flickr groups I am in to see what people with similar interests are using. In the hiking-related groups, the G series is quite popular.

So, at this point I am leaning very heavily towards the Canon G11. The manual controls look like they would be an improvement over always pushing a series of buttons. Hacking would not be an issue for shooting in RAW, since the G11 already has RAW capability.

Again, thank you to everyone who has responded to my query.

 

[David Metsky]

Hacking would not be an issue for shooting in RAW, since the G11 already has RAW capability.

This CDHK firmware is the simplest thing, does nothing permanent to the camera, and is pretty much bombproof. It's better firmware than what comes with the camera and won't void you warranty in any way.

Having said that, I think the G11 or S90 would be fine choices.

 

[Billy]

Elizabeth, please allow me to waste two minutes of your life. You said you wanted a compact. What I'm about to show you fails that requirement. But it might be worth considering. From now until July 10, this is only $50 more than this.

 

[David Metsky]

Yes, but the 18-55 lens will soon be followed up by other lenses, even to match the limited zoom range of the G11. The G11 is pretty much all you'll have to spend. With the DSLR, expect to spend significantly more down the road.

 

[sardog1]

I have spent more money with B&H Photo than I care to think about. But every purchase has been satisfactory in terms of price and service. So I can recommend B&H as a vendor:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/

G.

Yeah, what he said. (Well, not the part about the amount he has spent.)

There are lots of ways to get scammed by the various photo equipment houses. The best way to avoid such experiences is to use B&H. And you can use the catalog in a bag as a tripod weight.

 

[Elizabeth]

Billy, My understanding is that the DSLRs are mostly useful with lenses attached, which would make them too big to easily carry while hiking (though I know some of you do). Is the DSLR by itself (without any attachments) really that much better than a compact? As David noted, the low zoom is an issue. Realistically, I am just not going to carry something large and bulky, and am not going to stop to get a lens out and attach it while Mr. Moose hightails it for the next county. (I tend to be an opportunistic photographer, rather than a plan-and-set-up-the-scene photographer.)

If I really end up sticking with this photography bug, I may someday end up with multiple cameras.

 

[Grumpy]

Billy, My understanding is that the DSLRs are mostly useful with lenses attached ...

Elizabeth, you surely have a knack for understatement.

Is the DSLR by itself (without any attachments) really that much better than a compact? As David noted, the low zoom is an issue. Realistically, I am just not going to carry something large and bulky, and am not going to stop to get a lens out and attach it while Mr. Moose hightails it for the next county.

A DSLR without a lens is an expensive doorstop, if it's heavy enough. Otherwise, it is completely useless.

I would say, generally, that wildlife photography is a fairly specialized activity, usually involving long lenses. That said, some remarkable wildlife pictures have been made with lenses in the range provided by the Canon G-11 P&S zoom (35mm equiv: 28-140mm). Luck and the photographer's own facility at picking off close targets of opportunity plays a significant role in shooting good wildlife pix with shorter lenses, I think. Hey, it's tough enough with the big bazooka lenses!

I tend to be an opportunistic photographer, rather than a plan-and-set-up-the-scene photographer. If I really end up sticking with this photography bug, I may someday end up with multiple cameras.

Photography, pursued with any seriousness is an opportunistic game. The best photos, though, generally are made when solid preparation (planning and practice) meet opportunity. Planning includes gearing up for the job, to attain one's photographic goals. Modern automated systems (both in P&S and more "advanced" cameras) have tended to reduce the practice component to a degree, I think, although that certainly is an arguable proposition.

If you are looking for something to just pull out and shoot quickly, and that takes up a minimum of space in your kit, you have just described the P&S quite perfectly. More capability (flexibility, expandability) will come with more complexity, more bulk, more weight, and more price. Photography always has been, and very much still is, a bunch of tradeoffs.

G.

 

[DougPaul]

Billy, My understanding is that the DSLRs are mostly useful with lenses attached, which would make them too big to easily carry while hiking (though I know some of you do).

As others have noted, a camera is useless (as a camera ) without a lens*. (The lenses on P&Ses are permanently attached.) The Canon Digital Rebel XS linked by Billy is a reasonable entry-level DSLR. It comes with a18-55mm IS lens (29-88mm 35mm equivalent FL) which is a reasonable lens for this camera. (Everything you need for basic photography comes in the box.) This is one of the lighter and smaller DSLRs available. It is also available in many stores--see http://www.google.com/products/cata...-FL6Hi2wSg_dTvBQ&sa=title&ved=0CAcQ8wIwADgA#p for a list. I suggest that you go to a store and check out a demo unit. (Also worth doing for a G11 and an S90.) This will give you an idea of the size and weight of the cameras. Additional lenses and accessories will, of course, add size and weight.

Note: one can buy DSLR bodies (the camera without any lenses), but of course they will be useless unless you already have or buy a lens or three for them.

* We are not interested in pinhole cameras here...

Is the DSLR by itself (without any attachments) really that much better than a compact? As David noted, the low zoom is an issue. Realistically, I am just not going to carry something large and bulky, and am not going to stop to get a lens out and attach it while Mr. Moose hightails it for the next county. (I tend to be an opportunistic photographer, rather than a plan-and-set-up-the-scene photographer.)

Depends on what you mean by attachments... There are lenses and many other do-dads that one can buy.

If you were seriously going out to photograph Mr. (or Mrs.) Moose (or other shy and/or dangerous wildlife), you would likely bring a 300+mm eFL lens and be ready to shoot from a distance. Of course, there are instances where one gets opportunities to get pics of shy wildlife from closer up--they simply happen less often.

Canon offers several lenses that meet the above 300+ mm eFL: http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=111 of varying cost, size, weight, and features. (Look in "standard zoom" and "telephoto zoom" categories.) (BTW, for the Digital Rebel XS, eFL=1.6*FL.)

If I really end up sticking with this photography bug, I may someday end up with multiple cameras.

A hazard of the game...

Different cameras serve different purposes. An important question is "What kind of pictures do you wish to take?". Unfortunately, many beginners don't really know. A fairly general purpose camera is probably a good place for such people to start. As they get some experience, learn more, and develop a style, they may develop a better sense of what they wish to do and what equipment is appropriate for them to buy (or wish for...).

FWIW, I just came back from a hike in the Whites where I carried a 5.8 oz 3.5x2.3x1.0 inch SD-800 with an eFL of 28-105mm. I took some pictures of the view from the summit and some lichens. I could have taken the same pics with my DSLR, but it would have been much bigger and heavier. Didn't need my 75-300mm (120-480mm eFL) lens, but I didn't see any wildlife either...


BTW, the reviews at http://www.imaging-resource.com/MFR1.HTM include many sample images as well as fairly comprehensive nuts-and-bolts reviews of cameras.

Doug

 

[Billy]

Elizabeth, I was looking at your photosharing site, specifically the photos from your photography class assignment. I like the kayak through the knot-hole photo...nice composition and exposure.

 

[pudgy_groundhog]

You've already gotten a lot of good advice and just wanted to give my perspective of a digital vs DSLR. When we went digital we started with a PowerShot G3. Loved the camera (gave it up when it broke and wasn't worth to repair). We found the manual controls to be more than sufficient. We were able to use a circular polarizer on the camera, which was a plus. We upgraded to a DSLR when we found we were pushing the limits of the camera -- some main concerns being we wanted to use filters and get rid of the shutter lag (not such a big deal for landscape, but PITA when taking pictures of a kid). And now we use an external flash too -- not sure of the compatibility with the PowerShot?

So we bout a Canon Xti with a 17-85 mm lens and it's been a great camera (although, of course, we'd love to have more lenses!). We've found though that we still use a P&S at times (one we can put a polarizer on and use it in normal light conditions) because we don't always want to lug around the DSLR. There are certainly advantages to the DSLR - mainly lenses and the ability to expand down the road - but I still think you'd be okay without a DSLR if you decide to go that route. I could show you a series of pictures and I doubt you could tell me by looking at them which were taken with the G3 and which were taken with the DSLR.

 

[sardog1]

beginning to upgrade my skills using a neighbor's borrowed Sony (too bulky to take hiking).

Wait until mid July and you'll have a chance to look at Sony's apparent answer to your needs:

"From Sony, the World's Smallest 'S.L.R.'"

It looks very interesting. You can find a comparison of specs with competitors' offerings in the category in another review at "Hands-on: Sony Alpha NEX-5 interchangeable-lens camera".

 

[David Metsky]

Unfortunately, the Sony NEX cameras appear to be targetted at the Point and Shoot user, the manual controls are almost impossible to use. The reviews so far are luke-warm.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/SonyNex5Nex3/

 

[Elizabeth]

Elizabeth, I was looking at your photosharing site, specifically the photos from your photography class assignment. I like the kayak through the knot-hole photo...nice composition and exposure.

Thanks, Billy. My photography professor says I should eliminate the pole. This will mean having to finally figure out how to use Photoshop.

BTW, What happened to the photo project/assignments (silhouette, same place different times, etc.)? They seem to have petered out. Are you thinking of starting a new thread?

 

[Grumpy]

Thanks, Billy. My photography professor says I should eliminate the pole. This will mean having to finally figure out how to use Photoshop.

Writing from a photojournalism/documentary perspective, what I think your photography professor should have said is, "This would be stronger without the pole. Next time you shoot this picture (and you probably will shoot it again, because it is a good pictorial idea), compose so the pole doesn't appear."

If you rely on Photoshop to correct compositional distractions like the pole, you won't learn to compose in the camera to avoid them, which is what yields authentic photographic documentary images. Removing or adding subject matter after the fact (in "post processing") turns your picture into an "illustration." (We've debated this some on this forum in the past.)

BTW, Elizabeth, in looking through your picture collection, I'm left with the impression that you have a good eye for composition and lighting, and a good sense for the "decisive moment." Those are great assets in photography. I particularly enjoyed browsing through your many dog photos -- your connection/involvement/engagement with the subject(s) shows through and manifests itself in some insightful and interesting pix. You also have demonstrated that a small P&S camera is capable of doing some very nice work.

G.

 

[Elizabeth]

Writing from a photojournalism/documentary perspective, what I think your photography professor should have said is, "This would be stronger without the pole. Next time you shoot this picture (and you probably will shoot it again, because it is a good pictorial idea), compose so the pole doesn't appear."

Actually, I think that is what he meant. (I don't have an exact quote). I was trying to shoot quickly before the kayaks moved on. A slightly different angle might have done it.

This one is perhaps composed a bit better, with the two kayaks, though I still did not manage to avoid the pole entirely:

Thanks for your nice comments about my photos. I am really looking forward to developing my skills, and experimenting with a new camera.

 

[Billy]

...BTW, What happened to the photo project/assignments (silhouette, same place different times, etc.)? They seem to have petered out. Are you thinking of starting a new thread?

I was just thinking about that a few days ago. I have an idea for the next assignment, but instead if you don't mind I'd like to nominate you to come up with the next assignment. You're taking a photo class, your photos from your site show some creativity, so "you're it". If you don't want to, I'll start a new one soon.

p.s. Tim, thanks for the CHDK reference. Very cool. I just loaded it and am still digging into all the new menus. Even if the whole f/w package included nothing else but the % battery remaining and the live histogram, that would make it worth it.

 

[Elizabeth]

Thanks! Have ordered G11

Thanks to everyone who contributed advice and encouragement. I ordered the G11 from B & H.

I had looked up a few of the other cameras suggested and decided that they were either too big to make me likely to carry them OR, if small, didn't offer enough grip-ability for my clumsy hands or otherwise lacked some feature that I wanted.

Hope to be posting new, better pictures soon.

With appreciation,
Elizabeth

 

[Grumpy]

Thanks to everyone who contributed advice and encouragement. I ordered the G11 from B & H.

I had looked up a few of the other cameras suggested and decided that they were either too big to make me likely to carry them OR, if small, didn't offer enough grip-ability for my clumsy hands or otherwise lacked some feature that I wanted.

Hope to be posting new, better pictures soon.

With appreciation,
Elizabeth

Well, it's been nearly month since that announcement, Elizabeth. What are your impressions of the new camera so far?

G.

 

[blaze]

Has anyone had any hands-on experience with the Samsung TL500 (EX1)? An intriguing camera, and well reviewed on the Luminous Landscape. I am seriously considering buying one. Panasonic's LX5 is due out soon as well.