Bushwhack Rating System

[ADK4Life]

I guess you have to drop the F-Bomb sometimes to express emotions, most of m good english teachers would let it slide.

Me and brownie had a little flame war in the beginning and stopped chatting for a while. He was mature enough to message me stating we should move past the pointless red square beef. A real stand up guy.

 

[dave.m]

If I have misinterpreted the site rules, please let me know what IS the
proper circumstance for giving a red square.

Who throws F-bombs over a red square???

As St. Paul said, all things are open to us, but not all things are benificial.

I'm not at all proud of this fact but I've probably sent more nasty-grams in private e-mails and PM than most people. I now consider it to be an ungratifying experience for everybody involved, hence my own personal rule of trying to never ever taking debates and conflicts into private mode (this includes, e-mail, PM and feedbacks).

I avoid this for 2 reasons. First, I think the dynamic changes for the listener. The conversation moves from an arguement in the public school lunchroom to a private mano-a-mano behind the school, so to speak. That is, I think people perceive me to be more confrontational when I try to issue correctives in private type of channel - feedback, PM or e-mail. Putting this yet another way, I find that private challenges are simply ineffectual in terms of influencing people. Worse, they remain ineffectual no matter how hard I work at trying to be reasonable and kind. I have concluded that people can hear me better in a public setting where my words can either be supported or challenged by our mutual peers.

Second, I find I that I do a better job of expressing myself in a positive, constructive manner when I choose to submit my words and my self to the accountability of public review. Putting it frankly, I generally conduct myself better in public posts.

I'm not casting stones here. Just reflecting the point at which I've arrived.

As for why people might get explosively reactionary to private rebukes.... well, at the risk of kicking a dead (or locked) horse, I honestly think that we make our selves vulnerable when we post in public and at a deep level, are looking for affirmation. I personally find it very, very hard to look past the "you stink" rejection that I percieve when I get a private condemnation (of any kind) and find it almost impossible to see past this in order to see what sort of constructive lesson I can learn from it. I definitely respond better to positive invatations to consider things differently though and I find I'm more open to that in a public setting where I don't feel like it's gone mano-a-mano.

Hope this is helpful,

 

[mavs00]

Was he serious? Who throws F-bombs over a red square???

Hmmmm, do you think we can get an F-bomb smiley installed here? it only seems appropriate, given the logical progression in the other direction --> . A similar progression in kind from --> {F-bomb smiley} would be perfect.

{/ sorry pathetic attempt to LIGHTEN THIS THREAD UP}

 

[forestgnome]

Oops! I do receive PMs; just not emails. I went through a year's worth of them.

Sorry to all if I seem like a badger. I'm trying to respectfully defend our right to enjoy our forest, which would be severely deminished if we couldn't hike off-trail. Brownie prefaced by welcoming dissent to the idea that all off-trail travel damaged the eco-system. Then he narrowed it to the alpine zone. I saw a doulble-standard because he is a technical climber, which requires off-trail travel in all zones. Through his replies, both here and PM, I sense his double-standard is based on an elitist notion that technical climbers respect the forest and alpine zone, while mere hikers do not. Therefore, it's ok for climbers, but not hikers.

Climbers would suffer much more than hikers if off-trailing were to be illegalized. This is not a straw-man. The idea is out there, and if enough people regard off-trail travel as harmful, it could happen.

Enough Sweet high pressure over the White Mountains tomorrow!

 

[dave.m]

Forestnome,

I sense 2 things going on here....

1) I sense that American society is undergoing a quiet shift in its thinking about our fundemental relationship to the earth. For hundreds of years, I think we can safely say that western cultures predominately viewed human-kind as the center of things. Most western forms of Christianity affirmed this, as do the ideas of empericism, so-called classic economics (based on human utility) and humanism.

It seems to me that human-centricism is being challenged on all fronts. Increasingly, theologians are discussing a more God-centered theology of creation which does not put humans in the center. Empericism has been displaced with scientific materialism, which does not really support the notion of the human distinctive. Humanism is increasingly being generalized to a more expansive notion of liberalism (liberty) that now extends rights to the next logical "other" of the the earth (see Roderick Nash, Aldo Leopold). And there is increasing interesting in earth focused religions/philosphies such as neo-paganism.

All of this to say, you are right that the idea is "out there" already.

IMO, this means we need to work very hard at understanding an increasing range of beliefs in this area and redouble our efforts to work the issues out in a respectful and democratic way.

2) I think we need to take care when talking about the "woods" or the "moutains". I find it more useful to consider carefully the different kind of land management regimes that are in place. I would fully expect that a multi-use USFS woodland would be managed very differently from a wildlife reserve. Off trail hiking might OK in one, but not the other. Different management goals lead to different rules.

 

[imarchant]

To all group members,

I am new to the group, so in hindsight I should have taken more time to ask the group opinions of bushwhacking before making my comments. I have learned.

Once I started to read replies, I realized that the broader scope of bushwhacking was far outside my message on making the point of not traveling over delicate regions.

Repeated bushwhacking to alpine vegetated peaks is seriously questionable.
That was my main point.
You all have said you don't do this.

I missed the mark completely in explanation.

Thank you for all your comments, both positive and negative.

Brownie

This is the great thing about this site. I too have posted my opinion on a topic. In a similar thread about LNT I made a statement, from my point of view. This point of view was incorrect for an area in the alpine zone. I was promptly corrected. Do not take offense if sombody has a different point of view, use it as a learning experience.

It's sad to see you left the board over a difference in opinion, hope you'll reconsider.

 

[spencer]

I agree with imarchant. Different opinions make the world go 'round. What's equally important, however, is how those opinions are displayed.

We all have good stuff to say! this has actually turned into a great discussion.

spencer

 

[Pucknuts61]

I have not been posting here too much lately due to the inconsideration some people have shown to others. The open attacks and disregard for fellow members has become a problem here.
Afka_bob (who I do miss!), TramperAl, Harryk, Sherpa John, and now Brownie have all been targets for certain members here and for some unknown reason the knowledgeable people are forced to leave while the disrespectful are allowed to stay.
This is what I call "The Andy Kaufman Syndrome". It easier to chastise and throw stones than it is to understand and accept that maybe these people have some great knowledge to be shared and maybe that an alternative viewpoint to yours is even possible.

Brownie and I have been best friends and hiking partners for over 30 years. He is passionate about the outdoors and especially our second home.... The Whites.
While each of you appears to have some self motivated reasons for your viewpoints, his concern is not only of yours but also for future generations. There's nothing wrong with enjoying our backyard, he just wants to make sure your children have the same opportunities you have.

We disagree constantly....and that's fine too. In some cases we change the others view to create a new understanding. In some cases, we dig our heels in.....but it's not a problem because we trully respect each others opinions especially when it's to insure that our wilderness will be there for years to come.

However, Brownie puts his money where his mouth is. While you're trying to figure out which outfit to wear on the trail this weekend, he is boarding a Greenpeace ship to assist in yet another environmental cause.
What cause have you taken up and fully immersed yourself in for the good of others?

He is not a technical climber either. His point is that TC's have a code of conduct that hikers should adopt. We all agree that the Alpine Zone has such a fragile eco-system that it warrants special care....Brownie feels that all of us should carry this concept through to all phases of hiking, not just above timberline. Apparently some of you take issue with that and think there is something wrong with being conservative and caring about the environment so you fire off emails and red squares. While you're typing your hate-mail, he's rallying for the AMC (of which he AND his family are major contributors) or he's picking up your trash on the trail or he's working on the board to actively support windpower to reduce fossil fuel pollutants or any number of other environmental issues.

Good thing we do our best to rid this board of people like that. We don't want knowledgeable conservationalists here!

Your words can upset people especially when they are trying to look out for your best interest....and if not yours then at least the next generations'. Your actions are what counts so kindly stop the mistreatment of others especially if your are too short sighted to understand what they are saying and take up a cause so you have a basis to make your remarks.

Peace out,
Bill

and thank you Dave M...the voice of reason. You should write the bylaws for this site!

 

[Double Bow]

Let's try to not paint everybody with the same brush here and let's REALLY clear up the misrepresentation.

Packnuts61, it is very wrong of you to insinuate that while Brownie is doing all of these appaulable deeds, the rest of us are sitting around doing nothing for the conservation and preservation of our wild (and not so wild) places. You can't possibly know what others on this board do or don't do. Please, don't act like you do. There are many of us on here (even those of us who bushwhack) who donate a great deal of time and money towards these same efforts.


Brownie... Jeff... Whatever you'll post under next... Your words and actions are once again not jiving with each other. I gave you a red because you were mentioning/complaining about the fact that you got a red. You knew that action is against site rules. Period. This was an appropriate reason to give feedback saying that "I disapprove". Yet, for someone who "wasn't complaining" you keep bringing up this fact (signing up again to do so once more) and have retaliated against me both publicly and privately with schoolyard language and other means. This hardly sounds like someone who was "accepting" it.

I had no personal issue with you before, in fact I thought you had diffused the original controversy on this thread quite well and that on other issues you made good points but, when you curse me out and try to publicly drag my name through the mud, I take offense. My red square to you with no attack on your character was warrented. Your words and retaliation toward me are filled with venom and spite and have no merit.

I hope that your activities help bring you peace of mind and of spirit. It seems that you must have much turmoil in your life for you to react so strongly to some one disapproving of your breaking the rules of a website. I am sorry for you. I know it angered you before when I said that red and green squares don't matter. Clearly, they matter very much to you and I am sorry that you got so angry at the one I gave you though, if you remember, I gave you a green another time when you were complaining about getting a red, to try to make you feel better.

Hopefully, in time, when you've cooled down and moved on to other things, you will look back and be able to see that I never meant you any harm and that your backlash was unwarrented.

Oh, and fun? Yes, that's allowed, provided you have the right color boot laces. Take care.

 

[dave.m]

Jeff and DoubleBow,

Are you guys in Boston? If so, can I please meet both of you at the same time for beers? I'll buy the round of frosties if you promise to stop this.

I would much, much rather talk about the pros and cons of bushwacking and land management, post-modern philosophy. Heck, if I wanted to read this stuff, I'd be reading the Feedback Forum!!

Honestly guys, I'll bet you both have more in common than not. Please don't let the evils of e-forums pull you both under. Feelings get hurt. Things get personal.

Will beer help? Can I buy you off?

 

[Pucknuts61]

I am not saying anything about anyone's conservation efforts, I'm saying respect the people on the board and understand where they're coming from before attacking their position.
Nothing more!

again....Peace Out,
Bill

 

[Artex]

Awwwwww, man! Brownie, if you see this, I enjoyed your posts. Hope you'll reconsider and post again. E-mail me if you ever want to do a hike sometime.

Peace,

-Jamie

 

[blacknblue]

Doublebow, It does make complete sense now, you can't read.

I am not saying anything about anyone's conservation efforts, I'm saying respect the people on the board and understand where they're coming from before attacking their position.
Nothing more!

again....Peace Out,
Bill

Packnuts, that's entirely unfair. You can't claim to "respect the people" and insult someone's literacy in the same post. Also, you WERE indeed speaking about others' conservation efforts in your previous post where you state: "While each of you appears to have some self motivated reasons for your viewpoints, his concern is not only of yours but also for future generations." The obvious insinuation is that none of us give a rip.
Brownie, I hope you do re-consider your participation in this forum; I have enjoyed your posts. Somehow this one got out of hand, but you do have much to offer (at least some of us think so!).

 

[dave.m]

C'mon folks. Let's sort this out over beers.

Really. These things never get sorted out electronically once they've reached this level. But if folks keep jumping in, I'm going to have a big bar tab.

Can we get back on topic and save the he said/she said for drinks.

And please, please don't take it backchannel in PMs. It won't get sorted out there either.

I'm very serious about me buying.

 

[Neil]

C'mon folks. Let's sort this out over beers.
I'm very serious about me buying.

In that case I'm going to enter the fray, throw a few e-punches then come to Boston for free beer.

 

[dr_wu002]

C'mon folks. Let's sort this out over beers.

....

I'm very serious about me buying.

Ok: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9082

-Dr. Wu

 

[Double Bow]

Can't read, huh? I guess I couldn't read this part of your tirade where you're questioning what others are doing for conservation efforts. Good thing because I might have found it offensive.

However, Brownie puts his money where his mouth is. While you're trying to figure out which outfit to wear on the trail this weekend, he is boarding a Greenpeace ship to assist in yet another environmental cause.
What cause have you taken up and fully immersed yourself in for the good of others?

Likewise, I might have been offended when you said...

It does make complete sense now, you can't read

Yup, good thing I can't read...

 

[forestgnome]

Brownie, if you don't advocate illegalizing off-trail travel in any zone, then that's great. If you do, then I oppose you, but no more on this thread.

Sorry, but you wound me up by starting with a complaint that bushwacking was harmful to the eco-system, but if you have changed your position to not opposing bushwacking, then fine.

This is not about you, it's about everyone who reads this forum. The idea that off-trail travel hurts the environment must be dragged into the light and shown for the turkey that it is. Sure, there must be limits, ethics, etc. But bushwackers are among the most respectful of the forest.

I am respectfully expressing myself in a constructive manner. Everyone here wants you to stay, and so don't you, so we'll be looking forward to your furture thoughts. You joined in the first place because of your passion and reverence for nature, same reason you climb and do all those efforts descibed by Pucknuts61. You see a world full of nasty urban sprawl and pollution, and you see beautiful places and feel a great desire to preserve what's left, and maybe even turn some things around. You and I will sometimes disagree about methods.

This is not a useless forum. Remember when Liza from NH F&G dropped in after lurking for awhile? Many people read this. It is influential, and growing. So, stick with it.

Happy climbs ( or whatever you call a day on a cliff)

 

[Pucknuts61]

Doublebow, you are correct and I apologize.
When I said "you" and "You're" I was honestly not refering to you, I meant the community in general. It wasn't directed it towards you but I see that I chose my words poorly. Several people have been flaming others lately and we're losing some great knowledge with people leaving here. My "you " is directed towards the misdirection of energy that's being done senselessly.
And I have a very dry sense of humor. My second post was suppose to be a sarcastic double standard that also came off poorly. Afka_Bob was much better at that than me. I accept any red squares.

Hopefully....Peace out,
Bill

(please turn your attention to my avatar for additonal lame humor)

 

[Double Bow]

Bill, I accept your apology. I agree with the sentiment that things have gotten a bit out of hand lately. That said, hopefully we can get back to quasi-normal here and get back to talking about hiking and equipment and all the other things that we have in common as interests.

No one wins when we start bickering amongst ourselves. I believe that we all have more in common than not. We are all very different from the vast majority of people and see the idea of carrying weight on our backs and lugging our work weary bodies up over difficult terrain as a good and rewarding way of relaxing. Clearly, we all are defective in the same way!

I'm optimistic and I think that all the inner turmoil will blow over soon. I think that you and I are here proving that we can civily work out our differences and move on without malice and ill will. Were we face to face, I'd shake your hand. As it is, I'll just say "No hard feelings. I hope to see you on the trail sometime. Have a good weekend."Brownie and everyone else involved in this whole mess, I'd say the same to you.

Life's far too short to get mired down with misunderstandings and petty arguements. Let's focus on what's important, enjoying the life we have while we have it and trying to ensure that future generations will be able to do the same.