Camera batteries

[Raymond]

It seems as though it’s getting harder and harder anymore to find a halfway decent camera that runs on double-A batteries. The cameras that seem to be best, looking at the reviews — like the Canon S95 or G12 — they’re using those real expensive lithium batteries, that run 35 or 40 dollars, and that (I thought) I read can’t be recharged unless they’re in the camera. What’s the point, then?

I know some of you must have cameras that don’t use good ol’ double-A’s; how do they work? Do the batteries last 12 hours and hundreds of photos? Or am I going to have to be satisfied with an SX130?

 

[nartreb]

I've got a rather old Canon digital Rebel. The lithium battery is rechargeable, the charger is about the same size as the battery and plugs into the wall. I've never tried to recharge the battery inside the camera. I suppose if you fed excess power into the mini-USB data transfer cable the battery might be able to charge off that.

Battery lasts for several hundred photos, or a couple hours of *continuous* shooting (less if using flash all the time). I keep a spare battery in my case, so I'm never interrupted. (In fact I have two spares now, but have not yet needed the second spare.)

Battery recharges in a couple of hours (faster in countries with 220V current).

Batteries do lose their capacity after years of use; the original battery from 2006 is now on a junk heap somewhere.

 

[MichaelJ]

It always varies on if you use the flash or the rear LCD display, but today's custom lithium battery powered cameras can go a long time. I've never had one die on a hike. I've taken one vacationing and taken tons of photos and never *needed* to recharge (though I did nightly anyway). I'd be willing to take my Canon 720IS on a several-day backpack without worry. 12 hours and several hundred photos? I can't quantify exactly, but I'd say you could achieve that, depending again on flash and LCD use.

In fact, I've found that I'm using lithium AA's in my 570IS (my usual hiking camera) because they're just more reliable. I put them in and went on at least 7 or 8 day hikes of 30-60 photos each (no flash, but using the rear LCD) if not more before they ever showed any sign of tiring.

I totally understand the desire to use AA. I like the fact my headlamp, GPS, and camera all take AA and can be interchanged as needed, and it's easy to just carry one spare pair. But lithium, either AA or custom, has the longevity, and nothing beats it for cold weather.

In fact, my AA-based 570 has a really tough time recharging the flash with each shot, whereas the 720 is ready to go almost instantly.

 

[David Metsky]

AAs are good, and more versatile, but nearly all modern cameras are going to the LiIon batteries for a reason. You can pack a lot more juice in a smaller package.

I'm not sure what you're saying about recharging them in the camera. Pretty much all cameras come with a separate charger that you can use for a spare battery while taking pictures.

 

[DougPaul]

While I too prefer AA power, I have several cameras with Li-ion (lithim ion) recharageable batteries. I haven't stressed the batteries as hard as others have, but I have had no problem with them.

IMO, it is worth carrying a spare if one expects heavy use or a long time away from a charger.

I've got a rather old Canon digital Rebel. The lithium battery is rechargeable, the charger is about the same size as the battery and plugs into the wall. I've never tried to recharge the battery inside the camera. I suppose if you fed excess power into the mini-USB data transfer cable the battery might be able to charge off that.

I don't think the Canon Digital Rebels will charge the battery when on the USB cable. My DR-XTi won't run from USB power either.

Battery recharges in a couple of hours (faster in countries with 220V current).

Do you have any evidence for this? My guess is that the charging rate is limited by the battery, not the power source. (All Li-ion battery chargers have to be smart chargers or they will destroy the batteries.)

Batteries do lose their capacity after years of use; the original battery from 2006 is now on a junk heap somewhere.

Li-ion batteries age and lose capacity whether you use them or not. It is better for the battery to recharge it after partial discharge than it is to use it until fully discharged. Unless you use them frequently, store them (particularly your spares) in the refrigerator (this slows the aging). And try to keep the batteries cool when charging them. (Note: these recommendations apply to Li-ion rechargeable batteries--the recommendations for other chemistries may be different.) http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Doug

 

[nartreb]

Battery recharges in a couple of hours (faster in countries with 220V current).

Do you have any evidence for this? My guess is that the charging rate is limited by the battery, not the power source. (All Li-ion battery chargers have to be smart chargers or they will destroy the batteries.)

Unscientific but dramatic recent experience in Peru. Battery recharged much faster than I'm accustomed to - five or ten minutes vs an hour (for a battery that's low according to my camera's charge indicator, but not fully discharged).

 

[Raymond]

I could have sworn I’d read a review that said the battery could only be recharged while it was in the camera, but if that’s not the case, then it’s not a deal-breaker.

So the lithium batteries should be recharged as often as possible, and the nickel-metal hydride should be run down to nothing before recharging? That’s interesting and good to know, because I’ve always tried to run mine down all the way. I’ll have to change my habit if I make the switch.

Thanks!

 

[DougPaul]

I could have sworn I’d read a review that said the battery could only be recharged while it was in the camera, but if that’s not the case, then it’s not a deal-breaker.

All depends on the design of the camera... Check the reviews and online manuals for the camera in question. No AA/AAA batteried camera should charge inside the camera due to the risk of trying to charge a non-rechargeable battery.

So the lithium batteries should be recharged as often as possible, and the nickel-metal hydride should be run down to nothing before recharging? That’s interesting and good to know, because I’ve always tried to run mine down all the way. I’ll have to change my habit if I make the switch.

Actually Li-ion batteries will last longest if kept at 40% charge... But full discharges tend to reduce their lifetimes. Since most chargers will not stop charging at 40%, then keeping them moderately to fully charged is the best that one can do. Storage, use, or charging above 30C (86F) is also hard on them. (Full details are in http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries)

NiCads are the batteries with the memory problem and should be run all the way down before charging. (The memory is a recollection of the partial discharge which results in a reduction of capacity. Charge/full-discharge cycling of the battery erases the memory and restores the capacity.)

NiMHs can have some memory--a smart charger charging at around .5C-1C (C=cell capacity) will minimize any such problems. (Slow or trickle chargers encourage the problem.) Running them all the way down frequently will reduce their lifespans, but an occasional full discharge will erase any residual problem with minimal effect on their lifespans.

They are all different...

Doug

 

[1HappyHiker]

I very much respect the advice and opinions provided on this forum.
Regarding this discussion about battery-life for Li-ion batteries, I need some further clarification. I think I'm misunderstanding something!

Am I correctly understanding that Li-ion batteries will last longest if kept at 40% charge, and that full discharges tend to reduce their lifetimes?

The reason I ask is that I'm confused by what appears to be conflicting advice, as provided in the User Manual for my Panasonic camera. Please take a look at the photo below which shows my battery, plus highlighted text in the manual.

Any thoughts, clarifications, etc from anyone would be most appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[DougPaul]

I very much respect the advice and opinions provided on this forum.
Regarding this discussion about battery-life for Li-ion batteries, I need some further clarification. I think I'm misunderstanding something!

As one of the larger posters on the topic...
FWIW, much of what I have posted can be found at http://batteryuniversity.com/ which is written by a professional in the field.

Am I correctly understanding that Li-ion batteries will last longest if kept at 40% charge, and that full discharges tend to reduce their lifetimes?

The is from http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries Tables 2 and 3.

Since most of us do not have access to a charger which can keep a Li-Ion battery at 40% charge, a reasonable approach is to charge it to or near 100% and store it in the refrigerator.

The reason I ask is that I'm confused by what appears to be conflicting advice, as provided in the User Manual for my Panasonic camera. Please take a look at the photo below which shows my battery, plus highlighted text in the manual. <image snipped>

The advice in the image ("Frequently charging up battery is not recommended. (Frequently charging battery reduces maximum usage time and can cause battery to expand.)") is more appropriate for NiCad batteries (except for the expand part).

We can make a reasonable guess at the competence of Isidor Buchmann (the author of the Battery University) (pretty good IMO), but it is much harder to assess the competence of the unknown author of the camera instructions. I'd be inclined to follow Buchmann's advice.

FWIW,:
* For infrequently used Li-Ion batteries (eg laptop, camera spares, bike light+spare):
I charge them and store them in the refrigerator. (They will self-discharge slowly, so I recharge them once or twice a year.)
* For frequently used Li-Ion batteries:
I charge them as needed (avoiding full discharges) and leave them in the device. I recharge at least twice a year whether I used them or not. (Self-discharge rates are higher at room temp than colder.)
* It is not good for a Li-Ion battery to be fully discharged, overcharged, or overheated (particularly during charging).
* (I switch batteries between categories as needed.)

Doug

 

[1HappyHiker]

We can make a reasonable guess at the competence of Isidor Buchmann (the author of the Battery University) (pretty good IMO), but it is much harder to assess the competence of the unknown author of the camera instructions. I'd be inclined to follow Buchmann's advice.

Thanks Doug. I respect your opinion and will follow Isidor Buchmann's recommendations.

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks Doug. I respect your opinion and will follow Isidor Buchmann's recommendations.

No guarantees that I am right--I'm just an interested and hopefully knowledgeable layman. (I'm an electrical engineer but batteries are outside of my specialty.)

On the other hand, Buchmann appears to be an expert in the field. His website is written so mildly technical people can read it and appears to have solid professional-quality knowledge behind it. I've been reading it for quite a few years.

Doug