Camera buying advice

[Mohamed Ellozy]

My old camera died (no tears shed over an old and very basic camera), so I need a new one.

I am not a photographer, just a hiker who takes a few pictures. So the obvious solution would be to get the cheapest camera that I can find. But I have a couple of requirements that complicate things:

• I need a real viewfinder, as to me the LCD is totally unusable in bright light. This requirement seems to exclude almost all the basic cameras.
• I would like decent (real) zoom.

My very limited reading has led me to consider the Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ28 and the Canon PowerShot SX10 IS. Both seem ridiculous overkill for someone who is not a serious photographer, but I find nothing more basic that appears to meet my two requirements

 

[Grumpy]

... I have a couple of requirements that complicate things:

• I need a real viewfinder, as to me the LCD is totally unusable in bright light. This requirement seems to exclude almost all the basic cameras.
• I would like decent (real) zoom.

My list of requirements for a "walking around" (hiking) camera contains those two items, plus a third: I want capability to shoot in RAW format. Oh, and I also want minimal shutter lag.

The camera that best seems to fit those specs for me now is the Canon Powershot G10. It is similar in price (B&H Photo Video) to the Panasonic Lumix DMC FZ28, but more compact.

Does anyone know from personal experience about the shutter lag on the Canon G10? (I currently shoot a Nikon D2Hs, which is lightning fast -- no detectable lag. I don't necessarily expect that from a point-and-shoot, but very noticeable lag as on Mrs. Grumpy's Fuji FinePix A 210 -- now several years old -- is not acceptable.)

G.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Canon Powershot A570IS came highly recommended to me from these same folks and I am quite pleased with it. Use good batteries though as it only uses 2 AAs. I can go 4 or 5 trips in winter on lithium primary cells and one good trip in summer on NiMh rechargeables. I paid $169 in September 2007.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=183&modelid=14905

See also http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=18197&highlight=Canon+A570

Tim

 

[Neil]

Been using the G10 for a while now and the LCD display is light years better than my older camera. Lots of resolution and quite bright (you can increase/decrease the level of brightness). It also has a viewfinder but I never use it because the LCD screen is so good.

By shutter lag I assume if mean time between shots then it's pretty fast but you have to turn review to off. I leave it set on for 2 seconds most of the thime in order to do just that: review my shot.

The G10 has the advantage of shooting both in RAW and jpg simultaneously and it sits unobtrusively on a pack's hip belt.


I shopped for the best price and was surprised to get it very close to my home at a small specialty camera shop. Watch out though. They seem to make their money on the accessories. Spare battery at the shop was $85 CDN plus 15% tax. On the net I paid $25 USD total.

Lots of criticism over the too many (14 million) pixels on a small receptor (whatever it's called) but I've made some 8x10 prints that are very clear and sharp.

You might not like the zoom level though. Only 5x optical but you can add stuff on to the front with appropriate adapters. Polarizing filter, macro lens, telephoto lens etc. See lensmate.com and Canon's site.


For mountain scenery I am satisfied with the 5x zoom because the G10 has a nice wide angle which I like for scenery.

 

[DougPaul]

The G10 is a nice camera, but it is rather expensive for a P&S. I doesn't sound like you are going to use the RAW capability.

You might take a look at the Canon A590 IS. (A Consumer Reports best buy.) Inexpensive (mine was $110), AA batts, 4x zoom (35-140mm eFL), image stabilization, viewfinder, manual and automatic modes. I have one as a "walking around" camera. IMO, the biggest disadvantage is that the eFL doesn't go down to 28mm.*
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/A590IS/A590ISA.HTM

* For scenic photography, I prefer cameras/lenses that go down to at least 28mm eFL--most P&Ses only go down to ~38mm eFL. The Canon SD800, SD880 (and follow ons) go down to ~28mm. The G10 also goes down to 28mm.

eFL=35mm equivalent focal length.

Doug

 

[David Metsky]

Any camera with more than 6x zoom will have an EVF (Electronic View Finder), not a true optical viewfinder. It's like a small LCD that looks like a view finder. It's not bad, but it's not like a real optical view finder. There will be lag between what's happening and what shows on the EVF which is a problem for action shots. They're better than the LCD in bright light, but not as good as an optical view finder. Both the FZ28 and the SX10 have EVFs, as will anything in that class. Of these, the SX10 (or the more expensive SX1) would be my choice.

If you want a smaller camera with a real optical view finder your choices are much more limited. They include the Canon A1100, SD780, SD1200, SD990, G10, and the Sony W300 of the cameras currently being sold. If you can find a Canon A720, that would be my choice since the replacement (A2000) lost the optical view finder and manual controls. The Sony W300 is a nice camera as well, also with full manual controls if that matters to you.

You can buy the A720 refurbished here. Don't buy the bundle of accessories, you can do much better elsewhere and most of the bundle is crap.

Here's a nice deal on the A1100 from B&H, my favorite mail order house - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/610441-REG/Canon__PowerShot_A1100_IS_Digital.html

All the others are available at B&H. They all cost a bit more.

The biggest thing you'll miss, as Doug said, is the wide angle lens which is key for landscapes. None of these have that.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

* For scenic photography, I prefer cameras/lenses that go down to at least 28mm eFL--most P&Ses only go down to ~38mm eFL. The Canon SD800, SD880 (and follow ons) go down to ~28mm. The G10 also goes down to 28mm.

They still don't offer a 28mm... after all the complaining and begging we've done

Tim

 

[Grumpy]

...

By shutter lag I assume if mean time between shots then it's pretty fast but you have to turn review to off. I leave it set on for 2 seconds most of the thime in order to do just that: review my shot.

...

You might not like the zoom level though. Only 5x optical but you can add stuff on to the front with appropriate adapters.

By "shutter lag" I mean the time that elapses between (a) when I trigger the shutter release, and (b) when the shutter actually opens to record the image. (Rifle shooters call this "lock time," the slight delay between when the trigger releases and the gun actually fires.) This is a case where less truly is more (in terms of performance). The closer to zero (instantaneous) shutter lag the better.

If I'm not mistaken, Canon lists the zoom range for its G10 as equivalent to 28mm-140mm in 35mm (full frame) format. Back in the film days my basic kit for hiking was a camera body plus 35mm and 85mm "prime" lenses, which covered my needs very well. I very seldom wanted any shorter or longer focal length.

G.

 

[Neil]

AFAICT there is no delay at all. You press down half-way until the camera beeps and when you press the button all the way it takes a picture instantly.

 

[David Metsky]

AFAICT there is no delay at all. You press down half-way until the camera beeps and when you press the button all the way it takes a picture instantly.

No, there's a delay. Pre-focusing (pushing down half-way) eliminates a lot of it but it's not the same as with a DSLR. If you can pre-focus, much of the problem will be gone, but if you can't (or in low light for example) the delay is quite significant, even on the G10.

 

[Grumpy]

No, there's a delay. Pre-focusing (pushing down half-way) eliminates a lot of it but it's not the same as with a DSLR. If you can pre-focus, much of the problem will be gone, but if you can't (or in low light for example) the delay is quite significant, even on the G10.

Perhaps the question I need to ask is how long does it take the G10 to achieve focus.

(Shooting withy my Nikon D2Hs, I almost always use "continuous" -- AF-C --focus that allows the shutter to fire even if accurate focus has not been achieved. I don't care for the AF-S setting that delays the shutter release until focus is achieved.)

This is not such a big deal on static, "scenic" shots. But it can be significant in shooting action.

G.

 

[DougPaul]

By "shutter lag" I mean the time that elapses between (a) when I trigger the shutter release, and (b) when the shutter actually opens to record the image.

My understanding of shutter lag is the same: essentially the time between when you press the button and the picture is taken.

The shutter lag can be greatly reduced on a number of cameras by prefocusing (half press to focus, 2nd half press to take picture). If you want short lags (say <200 ms), you may have to use a DSLR.

Imaging Resource measures the shutter lag for many of their reviews:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/MFR1.HTM


Little anecdote: When to tried to take a portrait of a cat with an (old) Canon A75, the cat walked out of the frame during the shutter lag (1 sec with autofocus). So I panned the camera to follow the cat during the lag on the next try...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Perhaps the question I need to ask is how long does it take the G10 to achieve focus.

From http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/G10/G10A6.HTM :
Lags:
Full autofocus: .569/.671 sec
Prefocused: .068 sec
Continuous AF: .614 sec
Manual Focus: .303 sec

Looks fairly typical for a P&S.

Doug

 

[Quietman]

You might take a look at the Canon A590 IS. (A Consumer Reports best buy.) Inexpensive (mine was $110), AA batts, 4x zoom (35-140mm eFL), image stabilization, viewfinder, manual and automatic modes.Doug

Boy, I wish that I had picked one up 6-7 months ago when Dell had them for $99! Now they are $180+. I've never seen a camera price increase so much over time.

 

[DougPaul]

Re: Canon A590 IS:

Boy, I wish that I had picked one up 6-7 months ago when Dell had them for $99! Now they are $180+. I've never seen a camera price increase so much over time.

It looks like they are in the process of being discontinued: B&H and Adorama no longer carry them. Canon still lists them as current with an MSRP of $129.99.

A search on Froogle (http://www.google.com/products) yields http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=Canon+A590&cid=5987112033073782991&sa=title#ps-sellers which has a bunch of listings ranging from <US$100 to >US$200. (I didn't investigate any specific listings in detail.)

Doug

 

[Quietman]

Any site listing the A590IS for less than $160 does not have them in stock. $165 for a refurb is the cheapest. Looks like the discontinued process is well underway.

 

[DougPaul]

Any site listing the A590IS for less than $160 does not have them in stock. $165 for a refurb is the cheapest. Looks like the discontinued process is well underway.

Bummer.

I suspect the Consumer Reports "best buy" rating in the latest issue increased demand at a critical moment.

The Canon A1000 IS might be a reasonable alternative. SRP $149.99.
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelInfoAct&fcategoryid=183&modelid=17479
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/A1000IS/A1000ISA.HTM

In a very quick scan of the specs, it seems to have 10MP vs 8MP for the A590 IS. Otherwise it looks pretty similar. (10MP is not meaningfully better than 8MP on a camera like this. According to one pundit, >8MP does not improve resolution in a small sensor P&S due to lens diffraction vs the small pixel size.)

Both Adorama and B&H have it in stock for US$129.95.

BTW, Consumer Reports gives it a "recommended" rating.

#include <usual_caveat>
(No connection with any of the above companies.)

Doug

 

[David Metsky]

The A1000, which has since been replaced by the A1100, doesn't have any manual controls. That is what made the A590 and the A720 such a bargain. Now, the A1100 and A2100 (which also lost the optical view finder) are just plain Point and Shoots. They're not bad P&S cameras but their a far cry from the cameras they replaced.

 

[DougPaul]

The A1000, which has since been replaced by the A1100, doesn't have any manual controls. That is what made the A590 and the A720 such a bargain.

Thanks--missed that in my quick scan of the specs--bummer #2. Maybe that is why A590 prices are spiking so high.

I don't use the manual controls on my A590 very often, but they are available when I want them. (I normally shoot in "P" mode.)

Now, the A1100 and A2100 (which also lost the optical view finder) are just plain Point and Shoots. They're not bad P&S cameras but their a far cry from the cameras they replaced.

I had seen that. The trends to remove manual controls and viewfinders from P&Ses are not to my liking...

Doug

 

[Grumpy]

One more question about the Canon G10.

Does the image review feature include an option that shows image histograms?

G.

(Apologies to Mohammed for creating drift or hijacking this thread. But I think it does bear on "camera buying advice.")