Cautionary Tale for on line trips.

[pedxing]

As someone who has joined in on trips organized at VFTT and elsewhere on line, I've been following the fall out from a trip organized on a "meetup" site. It was a West Coast trip, but it is a cautionary tale for trip organizers and participants. Generally, I think the sophistication of most VFTT'ers would make VFTT trips pretty safe bets but here it is:

Trip description:

http://backpackers.meetup.com/114/calendar/6803238/

Trip outcome:

http://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7963667

http://backpackers.meetup.com/114/boards/view/viewthread?thread=3911127&pager.offset=0

 

[BlackSpruce]

Thank you for posting this links and congratulations to the trip leader for writing a trip report so that we can all learn from his group adventure.

 

[Woody]

I never consider a VFTT group hike an organized event with a specific leader. I always consider them as a hike that a group of people happen to be sharing. As such, I consider it my responsibility to research the trails, conditions, weather, the necessary equipment and any other factors that I think may be important. I do what is necessary to be self sufficient, although I would always be willing to help any hiker/climber in need.

Now an AMC organized hike (or other event) is a different story. I would expect to have a leader that has done the research into the conditions and the skills of the group and even may do a gear check prior to starting the hike/event.

It is important that people know what type of hike they are going on. If they are new to the group they should ask questions about the organization (or lack of) and the skills or the leaders (or lack of leaders).

 

[sleeping bear]

I think there's a big difference when something is advertised as 'beginners winter camping trip' with an official organizer posting equipment lists as opposed to someone on a board like this saying 'Hey, I'm going here anyone wanna come too?".

The way things go these days, unless you've got experience, insurance, and waivers, don't advertise yourself as the hike 'leader'. As the leader you have unofficially assumed responsibility for those who join. I suppose if it went real bad a judge or jury could have to decide how much responsibility you had incurred. It would seem wise to CYA and just invite folks to come along.

Likewise, I think it would not be smart to join on with some unsponsored or unofficial group. Who knows what you might get into. Especially for a winter trip!

 

[skibones]

Thanks for that trip report. I've only gone on a few group AMC trips but the leaders were always reliable. Do you think East coast trip leaders are more responsible?
I sent my daughter on an Alaskan trip years ago with a well know group. She broke an arm and it was 4 days before she was air lifted out when the supplies came. Overall the leader did not act responsibilbly- luckily a friend that lived fours away drove up to pick her up and get her on a flight back east. Later that month this friend sent me a newspaper article that reported about this leader getting rescued from a trip where he got lost and unprepared!
I guess if I was going on a trip that was a few weeks long I would ask what the leader's background is. The good part of my daughter's trip was that the herds of wildlife she saw from the bush plane was something that she would not have seen otherwise.

 

[NewHampshire]

Thanks for that trip report. I've only gone on a few group AMC trips but the leaders were always reliable. Do you think East coast trip leaders are more responsible?

In the case of Meetup.com its not necessarily people with credentials leading groups. Meetup.com is a site that basically gives you a convenient way to organize people in your area into a group. For example, I could pay the fee to start a Meetup.com group called "VFTTers Backpacking fun". Since I am the one paying and starting the site I am by default the "group leader". That is what the group mentioned in the first post is. He was not necesarily any kind of accredited "proffessional" group leader, but a person who started the group. So from this we can not necessarily peg all West Coast guides as lacking.

Brian

 

[sleeping bear]

Do you think East coast trip leaders are more responsible?

Are you serious? There are good and bad leaders everywhere, it doesn't matter what side of the country you live on.

 

[Mad Townie]

[RANT] Sorry, I don't usually join in these "what an idiot" discussions, but in light of our "dropping pack" thread, I found this interesting.

How could a person characterize as "A grand adventure!" a mess, arguably of his creation, that involved the following: " When we got out, between the 12 or 14 hikers that came in, 2 helicopter crews, 2 ambulances, command post, snow plow, sherriff, there were more than a hundred volunteers involved in this rescue."
[/RANT]

 

[BobC]

[RANT] Sorry, I don't usually join in these "what an idiot" discussions, but in light of our "dropping pack" thread, I found this interesting.

How could a person characterize as "A grand adventure!" a mess, arguably of his creation, that involved the following: " When we got out, between the 12 or 14 hikers that came in, 2 helicopter crews, 2 ambulances, command post, snow plow, sherriff, there were more than a hundred volunteers involved in this rescue."
[/RANT]

The guy that said that was not the leader, he was the one that got frostbite on his feet and had to be hospitalized. He may have been a bit out of it when he labelled this as a "grand adventure".

Also, the hike leader posted a full apology and opened himself up for any kinds of comments on the forum of meetup.com. He also thanked SAR.

None of this excuses them from being unprepared and causing more than 100 people to be involved in a rescue, but it doesn't sound like this was a bunch of complete morons who were unaware of what they ended up putting other people through.

 

[king tut]

I read the links briefly. Honestly, the guy is a horrible speller. Generally there is a strong correlation between spelling and intelligence. I am not about to go on a trip with a guy that mis-spells 10% of his words. What about the other lemmings? Do they check the weather forecast or just jump off the cliff? Maybe this is just a case of Darwinism that was interrupted by an SAR crew. Maybe I am an a$$, but I am honest. Don't drink the Kool-aid from the guy in the strange outfit...

 

[TomD]

Mad Townie-my thoughts exactly. What a moron. At least the "leader" owned up to his mistakes.

I had a casual friend who was a great guy, and a helicopter pilot. He and two other people were killed in a crash looking for a moron just like these people. He had gone hiking in bad weather in Hawaii of all places (it can rain like mad over there) and got lost. They never did find him, but 3 people died trying.

I know SAR people love what they do, and yeah, maybe someday, I'll get hurt and need them, but putting them in needless danger for no reason is beyond me.

I'm no genius, but even I know how to get the weather forecast from the NWS site. This was supposed to be a huge storm, so I don't think anyone was keeping it a secret.

 

[pedxing]

I wasn't trying to start a "lets bash the morons thread." I approach something like this with the humility of knowing I am capable of behaving mindlessly at times, but also with the confidence that I'm capable of becoming more mindful by learning from mistakes others have made.

It never hurts to look at evidence of the importance - especially in winter - of preparation, commitment, individual responsibility, safety, a willingness to cancel plans, and a willingness to repeatedly seek out and attend to evidence which might upset, alter or nullify plans, commitments or views that you have embraced or shared with others.

Of course, the juxtaposition of the trip description and the trip reports is mind blowing. It's kind of a classic "three hour tour" thing.

 

[TomD]

I realize people get in over their head; been there, done that myself on occasion in a different environment. What irks me is the attitude of one of these people who thinks that dragging dozens of people, SAR resources and helicopters out to find him and his buddies is, as he put it, "a grand adventure." This says he learned nothing from this except that he doesn't have to learn anything about how to plan or how to survive as long as he has his cel phone with him.

 

[Mongoose]

"A grand adventure!"

I'm all for giving people the full right to be reckless in the outdoors. It's when their recklessness involves others that they should be stopped. I find it really odd that few of the replies on that message board show concerns about the SAR people coming to the rescue. It's like the SAR people are expected to come out and pick up people like the garbage man picks up barrels.

 

[Ed Poyer]

Very well stated...bears emphasis

It never hurts to look at evidence of the importance - especially in winter - of preparation, commitment, individual responsibility, safety, a willingness to cancel plans, and a willingness to repeatedly seek out and attend to evidence which might upset, alter or nullify plans, commitments or views that you have embraced or shared with others.

...and making the sometimes difficult decision to turn around.

Ed

 

[the starchild]

"Here's one idea: on trips where carrying snowshoes is debatable, have the group carry 4 snowshoes (preferably larger ones), shared among the group (so a group of 4 would carry 1 snowshoe per person). with the option for 2 people to break trail, this gives the group a fighting chance of getting out if conditions go unexpectedly bad." --- from a post on the linked thread.


This seems like a bad idea and i don't think many people on this board would go along with this. (i could be wrong!) it also made me think about the east coast vs. west coast comment on VFTT. but, i do not think its fair to say east vs west, i believe its a matter of the experience of the people who choose to post on the two boards. there are many boards online and they are all very different. different levels of education, experience, moderation, etc.

although we all have our own ideas of what is safe, i can't believe i read the above, seems like a recipe for disaster. if you need snow shoes...or feel you might need them....and especially if maybe you will need them to not die or lose toes....you bring them. duhhh! right!?!?

in the end, we are all responsible for our own safety and should make decisions we are comfortable with and can live with. personally, if people in a group in a winter outing think its safe to carry a single snowshoe each, i will not be hiking with them.

safe hiking everyone!

 

[sleeping bear]

I'm all for giving people the full right to be reckless in the outdoors. It's when their recklessness involves others that they should be stopped. I find it really odd that few of the replies on that message board show concerns about the SAR people coming to the rescue. It's like the SAR people are expected to come out and pick up people like the garbage man picks up barrels.

What it boils down to is a failure to recognize and respect the dangers of winter environments (or other seasons too). So many people go out these days, and new technology makes it relatively easy to do. Look at cotton for instance. It used to be a fabric that many people wore outside in the winter. Nobody does anymore because there are other fabrics that are easier to manage. New fabric and equipment makes it easy to get by with less skill and perhaps provides a false sense of security. Having a tent and sleeping pads is no replacement for know-how and a healthy respect for mother nature.

 

[pedxing]

I agree about SAR. While the trip organizer seemed to have a full appreciation of what he owed SAR and how much he had put others out and endangered them, I can only hope that the participant who told of his "grand adventure" has learned something in the aftermath. I also beg to differ with his claim that "We all had adaquate [sic] gear for the conditions."

And thanks Ed for stating and emphasizing the bottom line more plainly than I did.

 

[BobC]

That's the comment that struck me as the most telling thing about this - that one of the hikers claimed they had "adequate gear for the conditions". Adequate gear would have got them out of there without frostbite and without involving SAR.