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Kmac, My first experience on XC skis was a lesson on Rossi skinny skis. Couldn't turn 'em, couldn't stop 'em. Solved both problems with my Rainiers. Nowhere near as fast (especially with skins on) as skinny skis, but way more control for a beginner like me. As I said above, I've got 3 pins and a boot one step below a plastic boot-high cuff, laces and two buckles. My boot is made of some kind of synthetic material and bits of leather or fake leather (can't really tell).
 
TomD, I really like my Rebounds which are similar to the Rainiers. And in general, I think it's easiest to learn on wider gear, which is why I suggested that kmac rent alpine gear (and take alpine lessons) to jump start that part of the learning.

But by way or reminder... kmac was asking for skis that could both be used at xc nordic centers in prepared tracks and in the woods. IME, this means limited the skis to those with a 72mm tip or less.
 
Funny thing, I've been skiing downhill for many years and consider myself an intermediate skier :) this was just very different. The skis seemed to be super slippery and I felt like I was trying really hard to manuever, I guess that's where the skins can help.
And yes, a much needed lesson in XC skiing is on my list of to do's.with all the new snow and predicted snow for this weekend I hope to be planning something soon.
Thanks again.
kmac
 
kmac said:
Funny thing, I've been skiing downhill for many years and consider myself an intermediate skier :) this was just very different. The skis seemed to be super slippery and I felt like I was trying really hard to manuever,
Mostly just different. With XC you control you edges from the ankle, DH from the knee. The basic braking and turn is the snowplow. Stem christies and parallel turns are possible, but are relatively advanced moves on XC gear. Most XC gear has less sidecut than DH gear and no metal edges. (A typical BC ski might have 10-20mm of sidecut and be 55-65mm underfoot. Metal edges are common on BC gear.)

I guess that's where the skins can help.
Skins are primarily used for traction when climbing. They can also be used to snub speed on the descent, but if you hit a patch of ice, they will grab and you will end up on your nose. (3 guesses how I know this... :) )

And yes, a much needed lesson in XC skiing is on my list of to do's.with all the new snow and predicted snow for this weekend I hope to be planning something soon.
The AMC runs a decent beginners' workshop, but it is over for this year. (disclosure: I was one of the instructors.) You already have many of the skills--a good lesson and some practice should help you to adapt.

Doug
 
kmac said:
Funny thing, I've been skiing downhill for many years and consider myself an intermediate skier :) this was just very different. The skis seemed to be super slippery and I felt like I was trying really hard to manuever, I guess that's where the skins can help.
And yes, a much needed lesson in XC skiing is on my list of to do's.with all the new snow and predicted snow for this weekend I hope to be planning something soon.
Thanks again.
kmac

I downhill skied for a couple of years before converting to a snowboards for most of my under 20 years. I got bored (and broke) with snowboarding so I bought xc skis. Having always had the stiff ankles and lots of control, I found myself feeling very uncoordinated and akward with soft ankled boots. I got used to it though and very much enjoyed xc skiing. You get the freedom of no lifts and no lines, but you lose some ski control too.

The wimpy ankles no longer do it for me anymore, just today I picked up Alpina BC skis, new NNN BC bindings and beefy boots. MI is supposed to get 11 inches tonight! I feel like a kid on Christmas Eve!
 
kmac said:
Funny thing, I've been skiing downhill for many years and consider myself an intermediate skier :) this was just very different. The skis seemed to be super slippery and I felt like I was trying really hard to manuever, I guess that's where the skins can help.

This is good to know!

What Doug said.

The primary difference in moving to lighter nordic gear is that it happens in the ankle. I find it useful to think of pulling my toes up instead of trying to bend at the ankles. The end result is the same and it takes some getting used to.

Another big difference is more of a mind set and suggested by Steve Barnett in his great book, "Cross Country Downhill". With light nordic gear, "stability" comes from a greater ability to move fore and aft. That is, instead of relying on burly gear to hold you upright, you have the ability to walk or run forward to get out of trouble. About to fall over? Step or run out into the next stride or next turn.

And this brings up a very big difference..... Narrow nordic skis want to go straight. Modern alpine skis are made to phloat over snow which makes them easy to slide around sideways. The place you'll notice the difference is when starting a turn. With wide skis, you can just push your skis out into a wedge. With narrow skis, you must lift up the ski and then set it back down in the new direction. This can feel (and be) very abrupt, especially if you are used to how wide alpine skis feel. Find a good book on xc skiing and read up on the nordic step turn. I really like Dostal and Gillette's "Cross Country Skiing" (Dostal may have a new edition out). IMO, this is a break out turn for alpine skiers moving into nordic. It really emphasizes stepping out of a problem (Barnett's insight) and the need to lift the skis out of the snow.

Hope this is helpful,
 
bunchberry said:
Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge or opinions about this particular Backcountry ski - the Alpina Tracker?

http://www.alpinasports.com/Alpina.php?Catalog1=16&Parent1=4

Any insight would be helpful. I have the same goals as kmac - using the ski for in and out of track, and while I am a solid intermediate downhill skier, x-country is very new to me.

Katie,

If your goal is to be able to use the skis both at xc centers and on easy bc trails like logging roads, this ski would do fine. I consider this to a narrower compact ski. See here for more details:
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/bc-skis.html#COMPACTS
 
dave.m said:
This is good to know!

What Doug said.

The primary difference in moving to lighter nordic gear is that it happens in the ankle. I find it useful to think of pulling my toes up instead of trying to bend at the ankles. The end result is the same and it takes some getting used to.

Another big difference is more of a mind set and suggested by Steve Barnett in his great book, "Cross Country Downhill". With light nordic gear, "stability" comes from a greater ability to move fore and aft. That is, instead of relying on burly gear to hold you upright, you have the ability to walk or run forward to get out of trouble. About to fall over? Step or run out into the next stride or next turn.

And this brings up a very big difference..... Narrow nordic skis want to go straight. Modern alpine skis are made to phloat over snow which makes them easy to slide around sideways. The place you'll notice the difference is when starting a turn. With wide skis, you can just push your skis out into a wedge. With narrow skis, you must lift up the ski and then set it back down in the new direction. This can feel (and be) very abrupt, especially if you are used to how wide alpine skis feel. Find a good book on xc skiing and read up on the nordic step turn. I really like Dostal and Gillette's "Cross Country Skiing" (Dostal may have a new edition out). IMO, this is a break out turn for alpine skiers moving into nordic. It really emphasizes stepping out of a problem (Barnett's insight) and the need to lift the skis out of the snow.

Hope this is helpful,

very much so :)
 
Some of the newer skate skis (not applicable to the OP's questions) do have side cut and are 'easier' to turn coming from the alpine world. Having said that, most really good skaters make skate turns, namely, they pick the skis up and put them down a bit to the direction they wish to go.

If you're in the track, you don't have to worry about turning as much. Of course on the steeper downs, most groomers pick up the tracksetter and leave you with plain corduroy.

Tim
 
bunchberry said:
Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge or opinions about this particular Backcountry ski - the Alpina Tracker?

http://www.alpinasports.com/Alpina.php?Catalog1=16&Parent1=4

Any insight would be helpful. I have the same goals as kmac - using the ski for in and out of track, and while I am a solid intermediate downhill skier, x-country is very new to me.

thanks,
katie

I just got back from my first trip out on the Alpina Cross Terrain BC skis. I bought them yesterday and had Rosignol NNN BC bindings put on and I got Rosignol BC-X3 boots.

I was out in about 2 feet of heavy new snow on an open trail and did some cutting through the woods. It was sooooo much fun! :D :D :D

The stiff boots allow for leaning back like with alpine skis and MUCH better ski control. The skis float really well and turn easily much like alipine. They're heavier, but I swear that made them glide better too. They seemed faster than my touring skis. I love my new BC skis and will never go back to touring.
 
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SleepingBear,

I love wider shaped skis too! I recently took a pair of Fischer Rebounds on the Livermore Road loop (same loop where DougPaul got hurt). Those skis are a lot of fun, especially in the woods and off trail. But I still think skinnier skis have their place.

My partner on that trip was my close friend afka_bob who was skiing on a pair of older Karhu Supremes which have a tip in the 68mm range. He and I swapped skis through out the day as is our practice. The narrower straighter skis track straighter and easier. It's an obvious obseravation relative to bc tracks I guess... The wider your skis are the more likely your skis are the widest in the track. My Rebounds definitely hung up in the bc tracks on that trip. What really stood out was how much faster and straighter running the Supremes were even when skiing in snowshoe trenches. The more shapley the ski, the more it wants to turn, even when kick and gliding!

The corker though was at the end of the day. We looped back into the Waterville Valley trail system with light falling and tired legs. Bob was able to kick and glide in the set tracks while I slogged along in a squirely sort of way in the skating lane. My wide skis just wouldn't fit into the set tracks. It's the sort of thing that really wears on your balance muscles!!

bunchberry and kmac both specifically asked for skis for use both in and out tracks. I can fit my Synchros which have 72mm tips into tracks, but that's the upper limit of what I would suggest.

I would suggest those Rossi boots (assuming they fit) to just about anybody though. Light enough for track and supportive enough for wider skis. Perfect.
 
For four days I've held my tongue, while I tried to condense forty years of nordic experience as a skier and equipment seller into something coherent, concise and useful for kmac and the others seeking advice. The result is what I'm calling "The Nordic Skier's Pyramid of Paradoxes":

1. At the pyramid's base is the fact that the first time you try the supposed "fun" of nordic skiing you may have very little fun, and it may seem like it will never get better. You might not move forward for lack of grip, and when you finally do start moving you fall down almost immediately. I tell people it's a lot like tennis (and golf, I imagine) -- your fun increases in direct proportion to your skill development. This is why it's a very good idea to get a lesson or two from a competent instructor right at the start, so you start with good technique as your model.

2. The next paradox is the desire for grip and glide. Achieving good grip and glide simultaneously is the Holy Grail of nordic skiers. It does not come easily to beginners and is often a source of great frustration for them. Good waxing technique requires substantial experience in a variety of snow conditions. (BTW, New England is one of the most difficult places on the planet to acquire good waxing technique. If you want an easier time of it, move to Minnesota where the snow is consistently drier, colder, and not as icy.) So-called "waxless" skis offer OK grip but glide that is almost always inferior to good wax applications. Skins offer great grip, relatively poor glide, and the hassle of getting them on properly.

3. The third paradox is the tension between gliding and turning. Gliding is done best with skinny skis, light boots, and light bindings, whether in a classical (diagonal) stride or with a skating technique, in a groomed track. Turning is best done with skis with substantial sidecut, with beefy boots and substantial bindings, in fresh, ungroomed snow. Substantial sidecut requires a width at the tips and tails that is antithetical to good gliding. Floating on fresh snow requires a width at ski tips, waist, and tail that is antithetical to good gliding.

4. The apex paradox is the fact that as a beginner, it's almost impossible for you to know what the "right" equipment for your own needs looks like. If your budget limits you to one set, then you will want to pick the equipment that will maximize your enjoyment for the type of skiing you will spend the most hours doing. For newbies, this absolutely requires expert advice. Read all the information available on the ski, boot, and binding manufacturers' web sites. Ask questions here. When you shop, grill the salespeople on their personal experience using the equipment they're recommending. If they're real skiers and not mere posers, they'll love talking about it. Pick a slow weeknight for your shop visit, so they have time to actually help you. Selecting and fitting skis and boots takes some time.
 
sardog1 said:
For four days I've held my tongue, while I tried to condense forty years of nordic experience as a skier and equipment seller into something coherent, concise and useful for kmac and the others seeking advice.

I'd say you nailed it. Good stuff.

Bottom line: The more you get into skiing the more you'll enjoy it. It's a fantastic sport.
 
There is some more Snow now :) ...go on out and slide and then stop and slide and stop and slide :cool: you get what I am talking about...you might be surprised what you can do no matter what the gear might be :p :D The important thing is that your Skiing :rolleyes: :) :) :)
 
sardog1-
While reading your post I had to laugh because it was exactly what I was thinking when I went out for the first time, you are right on target.
Thanks for the great advice.

kmac : )
 
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