Little Rickie
New member
Simple. If she was in tough shape I'd walk he out.
If she wasn't in bad shape then I'd tell he the facts of life about hiking in the mountains ill prepared and to turn back now or proceed at her own risk.
Climber Who Left Partner Cited for Disorderly Conduct
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Simple. If she was in tough shape I'd walk he out.
If she wasn't in bad shape then I'd tell he the facts of life about hiking in the mountains ill prepared and to turn back now or proceed at her own risk.
erugs
New member
These all sure are "teachable moments." A friend of mine who was an Outward Bound Instructor on Hurricaine Island has taught a lot of people, myself included, basics of schooner sailing as a team. We have a lot of teaching moments on board.
Here's one thing, no two, that I have learned from him: #1. it's okay for it not to be your way. It's possible to admit, "well, that's good, too." #2. Instead of saying "don't" suggest a different way by saying, "Hmmmm. What I usually do is...." and then describe another way to think about.
Okay, #3. It's important to emmphatically state "No!!!!" if the action would put a person in danger. (i.e. don't drop the jib sail if I've asked you to get ready to "come about."
I was on a "beginner" backpack once where the leader chose the morning of Day 2 her rules for packing. That's a bit late and discouraging. There are tips all over the place, if someone just looks, that describe what people should have with them on a trek. Even the guys who recently needed a rescue on the Ammonoosuc Trail had plenty of time to see how other hikers were prepared.
I'm an optimist and like to think we enthusiasts want to be stewards and teachers.
Here's one thing, no two, that I have learned from him: #1. it's okay for it not to be your way. It's possible to admit, "well, that's good, too." #2. Instead of saying "don't" suggest a different way by saying, "Hmmmm. What I usually do is...." and then describe another way to think about.
Okay, #3. It's important to emmphatically state "No!!!!" if the action would put a person in danger. (i.e. don't drop the jib sail if I've asked you to get ready to "come about."
I was on a "beginner" backpack once where the leader chose the morning of Day 2 her rules for packing. That's a bit late and discouraging. There are tips all over the place, if someone just looks, that describe what people should have with them on a trek. Even the guys who recently needed a rescue on the Ammonoosuc Trail had plenty of time to see how other hikers were prepared.
I'm an optimist and like to think we enthusiasts want to be stewards and teachers.
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Maybe set her up w/ some of your gear so she was comfortable, convince her (??) to stay right there, and you'd be back in two hours to walk her out?
Best of both worlds?
If she continued to follow like a just fed stray dog, I'd probably be forced to turn back with her and walk her out, muttering the entire way.
Best of both worlds?
If she continued to follow like a just fed stray dog, I'd probably be forced to turn back with her and walk her out, muttering the entire way.
Mikie
New member
I would first have a conversation with her about her health. Is she having a medical event that I am not aware of. Does she need medication, like insulin. Has she fallen and hit her head. I would ask enough questions to determine that she is not going to die on me, and that she is okay medically. If I get a positive on any of my questions, I would immediately stop my hike and walk her out and get her help. Half Dome isn't going anywhere. The mountain will always be there for me to hike.
If there isn't a medical event or some special problem, then I would explain to her my day's plans. She then needs to work her day around my day. If she wants to wait for me to return in a couple hours, I would be happy to walk her out. Or, she can walk herself out by following my tracks in. What would you like to do?
If there isn't a medical event or some special problem, then I would explain to her my day's plans. She then needs to work her day around my day. If she wants to wait for me to return in a couple hours, I would be happy to walk her out. Or, she can walk herself out by following my tracks in. What would you like to do?
erugs
New member
Sounds good!
Brambor
Well-known member
depends
If I thought that person could definitely be in life threatening situation (incapable to handle the situation) that day then I would not have gone on without her. The mountain will be there another day. I would have asked the right questions before even allowing her to tag along with me in the first place and also let her know what my plans are and what are the consequences of my trip plan. Most likely after I would let her know what's up she/we would have realized that she should not go up there with me. I would walk her to safety.
If I thought that person could definitely be in life threatening situation (incapable to handle the situation) that day then I would not have gone on without her. The mountain will be there another day. I would have asked the right questions before even allowing her to tag along with me in the first place and also let her know what my plans are and what are the consequences of my trip plan. Most likely after I would let her know what's up she/we would have realized that she should not go up there with me. I would walk her to safety.
Craig
New member
It was a weird situation. The second she saw me, she attached herself to me like an Alabama tick.
While we were hiking I was trying to get a “read” on her. She didn't appear to be mentally unstable, she wasn't injured, she spoke intelligently, obviously educated, and she was hiking strong. It was just weird and I was getting a strange vibe off her.
(continuing)
Me: (as I sat down beside her in the snow) Are you OK?
Girl: (in a sheepish voice) Fine
It was at this moment I realized that she was scared. She was scared and didn't want to tell me.
She had gotten in way over her head and she was scared of being in this big scary wilderness alone. Scared of being alone this far from people, shelter, safety.
Me: You know, it's been a long hike up here. I'm kind of tired and it's probably best if I don't attempt climbing that thing this late in the day. Why don't we just head down now?
Girl: Sounds good.
The hike out seemed like it took forever. She complained that her knees were killing her so we stopped every 10 minutes or so. We didn't talk much on the way out and I tried not to indicate I was quite pissed off.
I wasn't really piss off at her, I was just mad that I didn't accomplish my goal because of something so silly.
All the way down I was second guessing my decision. After all she wasn't hurt, she was strong enough to continue up so she should have been strong enough to head down, and while she was under-prepared, I'm convinced that had I not come along, she would have somehow been fine.
When we got to the TH we jumped in my car and I dropped her off at the bus pickup in the valley.
As I drove out of Yosemite, tail between my legs, the distance site of half dome in my rear view mirror, I licked my wounds, the taste being somewhat bitter.
Fear can make people act strange.
Kevin Rooney
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Well, I suppose that's a way of looking at it.
We often don't know how our actions affect strangers, especially an act of compassion like this one. Personally - my hunch is that the choices made that day will have a greater impact on that person's life than you may ever know.
DougPaul
Well-known member
I think you could have justified either of two actions here. First of all, she needed to turn back here--it appears that she was totally unprepared to climb the Dome. You turning around with her is certainly the conservative (and nice) thing to do. However it likely would also have been justifiable for you to suggest that she turn around (or wait) while you attempt the Dome and perhaps catch up to her on the way out. (Assuming that the navigation and weather were not issues.)
That much more reason for her not to have attempted the Dome.
Certainly frustrating, but do you think you would have still continued up the Dome even if she had not been there? (Time, fatigue, snow conditions, etc.)
It sounds like she would have been able to make her own way out safely.
Many of us have gotten in over our heads on occasion and it is nice when someone gives us a hand.
IMO, trying to get rid of her by outrunning her was probably not a good strategy. She would likely focus on trying to keep up with you and perhaps exhaust herself chasing after you with the risk of getting in too far. Telling her what lay ahead and suggesting that she turn around would probably have been better (but harder to do).
You did your good deed for the day--the Dome will still be there tomorrow. (Rummaging around in my box of odds and ends for a gold star...)
Doug
Craig
New member
It's funny how the nuances of a situation or circumstances are never fully communicated in a written story.
In practice I tend to be a pragmatic results orientated individual. Once I set a goal for myself I tend to be fairly focused on achieving that goal. This, as you can imagine, can create certain difficulties in your life if you aren't able to be flexible in achieving those goals. I tend to make sure things within my control don't inhibit my ability to achieving them (i.e. proper preparation) but remain flexible to understand things beyond my control may thwart my efforts (i.e. weather, conditions etc.). I have turned around numerous times for numerous reasons, and am no stranger to disappointment.
I also tend to want to help others. I can easily identify someone in need and will typically help if I can.
Having said that – I'll explain a couple of those nuances which may or may not be applicable to others in the same situation.
The day of this hike I felt optimistic of a successful day. I was fully prepared, there were no crowds to get in the way and the weather was stable. Without anyone else around to interrupt my concentration, I was very focused and fully engaged in the task at hand.
Then the girl shows up. I immediately identified her as an impediment to achieving my goals. However my need to help took precedence.
Once I found out she had no food, water or equipment, I recognized my error in getting involved with her and just wanted to cut bait so I could regain my focus on the task at hand. Additionally I felt a certain de facto responsibilty for her because I allowed her to tag along. This was a drain on my focus as well.
Lets face it, I was embarking on a trek into the unknown, solo. Truth be told, there was a bit of apprehension about what lay ahead and focus was important to identify hazardous conditions and making safe decisions.
Of course, at this point, the adult thing to do, would have been to stop and explain to her that I needed to continue alone and in my estimation the conditions will get worst and it might be best to turn around.
However, at the time, and in my heightened state of arousal, it seemed that the easiest path to my goal was to lose her, not to engage her.
Standing on sub-dome the visual boot tracks indicated that the climb had been done before so it appeared to be do-able solo. Standing there I felt strong, confident and excited to get started. I had 4 hours until sunset which gave me plenty of time for the round trip. I certainly would have tried to summit but who know if conditions would have allowed it.
The reason I was so mad, is my decision to leave the girl was within my control but my inability to control the decision was frustrating.
-In other words-
Intellectually, I presumed this girl would be physically OK while I continued, whether she waited for me or headed down, but emotionally, I couldn't leave her there in her state of distress.
If I got a do-over, I think I would tell her when I met her that “I would rather hike alone”, that way I could focus on my well being rather than worrying about someone else's well being.
It was definitely an odd set of circumstance that I didn't control correctly that led to the failure to achieve my goals. By no means the end of the world but a learning experience for me none the less.
In practice I tend to be a pragmatic results orientated individual. Once I set a goal for myself I tend to be fairly focused on achieving that goal. This, as you can imagine, can create certain difficulties in your life if you aren't able to be flexible in achieving those goals. I tend to make sure things within my control don't inhibit my ability to achieving them (i.e. proper preparation) but remain flexible to understand things beyond my control may thwart my efforts (i.e. weather, conditions etc.). I have turned around numerous times for numerous reasons, and am no stranger to disappointment.
I also tend to want to help others. I can easily identify someone in need and will typically help if I can.
Having said that – I'll explain a couple of those nuances which may or may not be applicable to others in the same situation.
The day of this hike I felt optimistic of a successful day. I was fully prepared, there were no crowds to get in the way and the weather was stable. Without anyone else around to interrupt my concentration, I was very focused and fully engaged in the task at hand.
Then the girl shows up. I immediately identified her as an impediment to achieving my goals. However my need to help took precedence.
Once I found out she had no food, water or equipment, I recognized my error in getting involved with her and just wanted to cut bait so I could regain my focus on the task at hand. Additionally I felt a certain de facto responsibilty for her because I allowed her to tag along. This was a drain on my focus as well.
Lets face it, I was embarking on a trek into the unknown, solo. Truth be told, there was a bit of apprehension about what lay ahead and focus was important to identify hazardous conditions and making safe decisions.
Of course, at this point, the adult thing to do, would have been to stop and explain to her that I needed to continue alone and in my estimation the conditions will get worst and it might be best to turn around.
However, at the time, and in my heightened state of arousal, it seemed that the easiest path to my goal was to lose her, not to engage her.
Standing on sub-dome the visual boot tracks indicated that the climb had been done before so it appeared to be do-able solo. Standing there I felt strong, confident and excited to get started. I had 4 hours until sunset which gave me plenty of time for the round trip. I certainly would have tried to summit but who know if conditions would have allowed it.
The reason I was so mad, is my decision to leave the girl was within my control but my inability to control the decision was frustrating.
-In other words-
Intellectually, I presumed this girl would be physically OK while I continued, whether she waited for me or headed down, but emotionally, I couldn't leave her there in her state of distress.
If I got a do-over, I think I would tell her when I met her that “I would rather hike alone”, that way I could focus on my well being rather than worrying about someone else's well being.
It was definitely an odd set of circumstance that I didn't control correctly that led to the failure to achieve my goals. By no means the end of the world but a learning experience for me none the less.
RoySwkr
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You chose the safer course, which nobody can criticize you for. There would have been plenty of second-guessing (by yourself included) if you had gone on alone and she had gotten hypothermic and unable to move while waiting, lost the trail and disappeared heading down alone, or gotten scared waiting alone and slipped trying to follow you up.
Let's just hope that she learned to plan her trips more carefully, rather than that a guardian angel will always be there to protect her.
Little Rickie
New member
Doodles
Active member
Craig it's really to bad that you didn't get up Half Dome this time, BUT you are a true and real gentlemen and karma being what it is, you did the right thing. Hats off to you.
Chip
Well-known member
This was the part of your story I noticed. Sounds like "The 'Umbles" to me. From this point on you were responsible for her, like it or not. Good On You for walking her out.
Craig
New member
Interesting observation. I think reasonable people could have differing opinions of that.
As stated, I felt a de facto responsibility for her but it wasn't at first sight, but could have been.
It's funny how the nuances of perceptions shape your emotions and ultimately your decisions.
When I first drove into Yosemite Valley, it was my perception that the vast majority of folks were tourists not hikers or climbers. By vast majority I mean maybe 95 out of 100 were tourists.
As I hiked up the trail, and first noticed fresh tracks, my first impression was, a hiker was ahead of me headed for the half dome. Why else would someone be way up there, right?
When I first saw the girl and she asked where the trail was I was horrified because my first impression was, this is a “tourist” way up here and she was lost. A “hiker” wouldn't be standing 15' off the trail, lost, right? This was a big problem!
When she came over and stood behind me talking about “pacing her” and wrecking “my wilderness experience” I thought, whew, this isn't a “tourist” it's a “hiker”. All that verbiage is hiker jargon right?
Additional input into my first impression of her capabilities were her appearance. She was extremely skinny, almost to the point of looking emaciated. My first impression of that was a negative one regarding her ability to continue efficiently. Additionally she was wearing new preppy clothing and a flat backpack, my impression being neutral because even badass hiker/climbers wear new clothing at some point and hike minimally right?
So because of these factors, having just met her 30 seconds prior, my immediate impression was: hiker – maybe illprepared – something not right.
So now she, effectively, asked to join me. Keep in mine this all happened in real time. I couldn't very well have said: “Umm join me? Umm can I have a minute to think about that?
What do you do? Whats your responsibility ethically or morally? Can you draw a distinction between ethical and moral responsibility in this situation? Do you even have any responsibility to this person after having met her for 30 seconds?
Chip
Well-known member
I guess I could have said "From this point on I'd feel responsible for her, like it or not."
But still: Good On You for walking her out. So she didn't offer to buy you lunch or a beer or anything ? THAT would have irked me.
Little Rickie
New member
Responsible-able to choose for oneself between right & wrong.
Ethical-act morally
moral-a system of right behavor
Another way to put it is what does that little voice inside you say is right and do you listen to it. Some people do and some don't. I think we are biologically wired to help others so our species survives. Some may think this is hokey mumbo jumbo stuff but maybe they are the ones that would leave the women behind?
Maddy
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"Something not right"
Craig...I think you "listened with the ear of your heart". You helped a fellow hiker who you instinctively knew had potential for a bad outcome.
Ethic, morals, who is responsible for who, none or it really matters. You are a selfless person. You made a conscious, albeit difficult decision, that "it wasn't all about you". You set your own goals and plans aside to help another human being. You did what you knew in your heart was the right thing to do.
No one knows what her outcome would have been if you had not helped out. You encountered what appeared to be a young, possibly inexperienced hiker, who had "accident waiting to happen" imprinted on her forehead. She latched on and you led the way. In my book, you are one of the everyday unsung heroes.
In a previous post you wrote "It was definitely an odd set of circumstance that I didn't control correctly that led to the failure to achieve my goals. "
Craig, you did achieve your goal. It's just that your goal for that day changed with no warning, and you saw it thru to the end with the same grizzly determination that you would have done your climb.
When all is said and done, we never really know when the boot will be on the other foot. We can only hope that someone of your caliber will step up to the plate, and offer to lend a hand.
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Craig
New member
Thanks for the kudo's everyone.
It was such a odd situation, I think it was fun to ponder the ethical, moral and emotional consequences of decisions made through the perceptions of limited information.
It was such a odd situation, I think it was fun to ponder the ethical, moral and emotional consequences of decisions made through the perceptions of limited information.
