Complaints from a child. How much is enough?

[BIGEarl]

How much complaining is enough? Sorry folks, but I’m very grumpy and feel justified.

This is probably less of a hike report than it is a statement of sincere concern coming from events that occurred during a hike.

Today, I climbed Tecumseh with a friend that needs a few more to complete the 4000 Footers. She was hiking with us earlier in the year but injured her leg and is now ready to once again hike. So, I’ll do some re-hikes and enjoy all of them.

Any of you that were lucky enough to be on the trails today know how great the day was. We hiked from the ski area lot to the summit and back. A short round trip to make sure Jennifer was back in the game. We didn’t try to play beat-the-clock going up or down, we just hiked at a leisurely pace. Everything was going great until approximately half way down.

We came upon a father and his two children. The Father was quite open with the fact he planned to have his son become the youngest member of the 4000 Footer Club ever. He had similar comments about the little girl. These two children were on a forced march to serve the ego of their abusive father. I can think of no other way to accurately represent the father’s behavior. At some point the line that separates acceptable parenting from child abuse gets crossed. Clearly, in my opinion (to which I am entitled), the line was crossed with this individual. The father described a hiking plan that included approximately 14 additional mountains this year for the son. He also indicated the plan was to finish all within the coming year. At that point, my comment was “I hope the children still want to hike after you’re finished with them”. The comment coming from the father was, “there has been some complaining”. Well, how much complaining is needed? If the individual can intimidate a small child into hiking a mountain for his own entertainment, what are his behavioral limits? All things considered, complaining may bring serious consequences to the children.

Important details I didn’t point out - the son is 5 years old and the daughter is 3 years old, and the father is keeping hiking scorecards on both. As the father talked, the boy stared at me nearly the full time. There was no happiness in his face. His eyes seemed to be shouting Take Me With You as we left and continued down the trail. I looked back over my shoulder more than once and the boy kept watching me. Clearly, the children were not enjoying themselves.

Unfortunately, the 4000 Footer Committee evidently tracks this statistic. If this is true, please change. It seems this particular statistic can only be important to an out-of-control parent as seems to be the case here. The AMC should certainly not encourage this sort of abusive behavior.

I know this is not a unique case, but with a change to the policies this behavior may diminish.

As far as the general hike is concerned the trail was in great shape, no blow downs, and a good number of happy folks enjoying the day. And, Jennifer is back in the game!

 

[1ADAM12]

I am really not sure what to say other than if your kids dont want to hike dont force them into it. If they are at all interested they will in their own time.

I have a 2 year old daughter and I have been introducing her into the hiking scene. I have a Kelty Kids Backpack Carrier that she rides in. She totally loves it but then again she is not doing any work either. When the time comes where she outgrows the carrier I truly hope she will want to go on little hikes with me. I cannot wait to introduce her to the Adirondacks and if she shows no interest i am not forcing the subject either.

 

[sapblatt]

Excellent thread

I would say the line has been crossed. This man is forcing his children to hike, and beyond tat, he is forcing them to hike a list.
Also, I am almost certain that his son is older than the youngest kid ever to do it. If you force your hobbies on your children it is the best way to ensure they will never want to do them.
Take it slow, and let them explore and enjoy...and if they do not like always remember that they too are individuals.

 

[Steve-o]

Yeah,
I think someone should punch that guy in the mouth.
What would happen if one or both of those kid's got injured or just became too tired to carry on? Do you think he would be prepared to carry them down?
I've taken my 10yo daughter on many hikes and backpacks in the white's.
I only take her on nice days though.I try to make it a pleasant experience for her, so eventually she'll be asking me to go. And I'm alway's prepared to turn around, even if it's 50 ft. from the summit.

 

[Doc McPeak]

Very sad story. Maybe it's the me-focus "reality television" attention craved times, but this sort of story keeps coming up more and more. Anything for a crow, anything to get on a today show blurb.

 

[Zimmer]

In my opinion, kids and hiking are like kids and vegetables. If they don't care for it, they should at least try a LITTLE BIT once a year or so to see if their tastes have changed. If their tastes have changed, terrific. Add it to the repertoire. If they still don't care for it, let it go for another year.

 

[mavs00]

I just took my 14 y/o son on a 16 mile bushwhack to an obscure ADK 100 highest summit with NO VIEW and in an all day rain. There wasn't a whole lotta joy in his eye that day (nor mine ) I assure you. He hated it so much that he told me the he would never forgive me if I didn't take him on my next "off trail" adventure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not making light of your post, as you do illistrate an important topic. Of course not being there, Its hard to speak about the specific incident which mention, but it wouldn't surprise me since I've seen that same type of behavior on little league fields, swimming pools and even school classrooms. I see no reason the mountains would be any different .

Just to offer another point, not so much on the situation mentioned, but on the topic in general. I find that it can be hard to fully understand the entirety of the situation when you only have a "snapshot" of time from which to pass judgement. For instance, my kids have been hiking since they were very young too, and it hasn't always been sunny bluebird walks in Dinsny's Cindrella woods either. Like adults, my kids sometimes have "those days" in which they do not perform as well as they normally do. I'm willing to guarantee that other hikers have passed us in these times, and after passing us perhaps thought "look at those poor kids, they hate this" or "What kind of horrible parents would drag there kids into these mountain against thier will". I certainly hope none of them felt the urge to "punch that guy in the mouth". Because the truth is, thier passion matches that of most adults I know, without question, and it's pretty easy to see if you spend any significant time hiking with them.

Please understand, I'm not justifying forcing children to "complete lists" and "hike against thier will", particularly at such young ages like 3-5. Quite the opposite. If done right, you can successfully grow a love for the woods, hills and streams that will last a lifetime while the kids are young. It's not always going to mean keeping them in thier comfort zone either. It's with a combination of coxing, pushing, playing, hoping, teaching and sharing that will help pass the "hiking gene" on to them.

p.s. You're all more than welcome to join us the next time we go out and "abuse our kids"

 

[AntlerPeak]

That does border on child abuse and a sure way to teach a kid to hate hiking. My son climbed his first high peak when he was seven because he wanted to. It was during the time I was chasing the high peaks. He did not go on every trip but for many he had the option and sometimes he'd choose to go. Three years after I finished he did completed his 46. Oh yes I did many over again because he wanted to finish. Twenty years later he still hikes because it is fun. The times we spent in the mountains created many great memories. I don't believe I ever told him he had to go only asked if he wanted to. That decision allowing him to participate at his own pace along with his sister who finished a year later is why I ended up climbing the Sewards, Allen and Santanonis four times. I often thought I should of said you gotta go. I'd be less than honest if I said that didn't cross my mind. But you can't force kids to hike and expect them to embrace it. But why should this be any different than over zealous parents who insist their kids be the next Ken Griffey or whoever?

 

[weatherman]

Thanks for raising this point, BIGEarl. Every time I feel myself getting impatient with my own kids (5 and 7) I have to remind myself that FUN is the object, with or without vertical feet climbed and/or 4K peaks bagged. Sure it's frustrating, but the mountains will always be there! So we have done no 4ks together yet. But we will. I hope. If they want to, hopefully with minimal pushing from me. If not, I hope they enjoy whatever we do outside.
Weatherman

 

[Steve-o]

I understand your point mavs,
I belive in this case, unless BigEarl is making this up for our amusement,
That the father said, that the kids have been complaining. and yet he has 14 more summits planned for the poor kid before the year was up.
btw do they make crampons for toddlers?
This is NOT little league or soccer camp. This is some pretty hardcore stuff.
Most adults would have a hard time keeping that pace.
The kid's are 5 and 3 !!! come on now...

Steve

 

[Peakbagr]

I think what he's doing is a shame. Unfortunately, he'll be able to do this for a while because the kids aren't old enough to tell him no.
Pretty good guarantee that those 2 children won't want to hike by the time they are teens.

 

[mavs00]

I understand your point mavs,
I belive in this case, unless BigEarl is making this up for our amusement,
That the father said, that the kids have been complaining. and yet he has 14 more summits planned for the poor kid before the year was up.
btw do they make crampons for toddlers?
This is NOT little league or soccer camp. This is some pretty hardcore stuff.
Most adults would have a hard time keeping that pace.
The kid's are 5 and 3 !!! come on now...

Steve

Without question, I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I attempted to steer clear of commenting directly on the situation he mentioned. That, of course, is way over the top.

My point was just to make add a "gentle" caveat that not ALL people you may run accross on difficult hikes with children are forcing it on them. After years of hiking with kids, you'd be amazed at how many people do "pass judgement" and vocalize it out on the trail.

Clearly a 14 mountain itinarary for a 3 & 5 year old exceeds the bounds of good judgement and I think almost all of us can agree on that. Sadly, I also agree that he will ruin the outdoor experience for these kids

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Things like this happen, and it's really tough to know what to do. There was a similar issue several years ago that the 46ers had to deal with, with the youngest winter 46er.

It is difficult to have a rule taht says a person can't be recognized until they are x years old. My youngest started climbing things at 3-4 because he wanted to. There was no goal to be the youngest, fastest, etc. and he wans't. It was quite a few years befre he finished. He just wanted to go. Obviously something in him, because now, at 20, he is working in the mountains doing trailwork, living in a tent 5 days a week.

IIRC, the 46ers did not publicize the what the baby had done, so the family went to the newspapers to get recognition.

 

[Maddy]

btw do they make crampons for toddlers?
This is NOT little league or soccer camp. This is some pretty hardcore stuff.
The kid's are 5 and 3 !!! come on now...

Steve

I can't help but think that this will come to a bad end. If one of these kids is injured and he/she ends up in a decent ER, the father boasting what he is having them do, I cannot help but think that the staff will file a complaint and child services will step in and investigate. Regardless of whether the father is boasting or not, he will be questioned as to how the injury came about. Where I work, no stone is left unturned if there is even a slight chance that a young one is sick or injured because of parent abuse or neglect. This is a really big deal these days and well it should be.
If he is doing this in the mountains, I cannot imagine how these kids are being treated at home. Very, very sad.

 

[smitty77]

This guy is a lot over the top scheduling another 14 peaks to hit this summer. Give me a break! I have a hard time imagining these kids, especially the 3 year old, find such peakbagging exploits "fun". I have a 3 year old who is always asking to go hike, and I wouldn't even dream of putting him through something like this. His stamina just isn't there yet. I started hiking at the age of 5 because I wouldn't stop nagging my dad to take me along. A lot of my "early" peaks were done as overnights to places like Liberty springs, Nauman platforms, or the huts so we could break up the distance. Two miles of climbing is a lot to ask of little legs. I remember taking a nice long nap in the tent after arriving at the site before dinner. I wonder how this doofus is going to address the mileage of Owl's Head? This was one of my last peaks on the lit at the age of 11, just because of the long dayhike.

I know Mavs00 is playing devil's advocate, and I sure hope he's right otherwise these kids have a rotten life. It's a nice idea to teach your kids how to set and achieve goals, but this seems akin to those mothers who press their daughters into fashion shows at the age of 2 because that's what mom "says" her little girl wants. It's sick how some people treat their kids.

Smitty

 

[Grumpy]

The guy and situation BIGEarl describes seem a little over the top, to me. Darned ambitious at the least, and "sickly" competitive by my lights. But then, I really don’t have enough information to make a judgement as to whether that father is “abusive” or not. So regarding that question I’ll reserve comment in either criticism or defense, for now.

But I think it’s fair to note that over the years of my own experience had we turned back whenever somebody -- adult or child -- in our hiking party “complained” we never would have gotten anywhere.

G.

 

[deb]

Complaints from a child, how much is enough

I also have a 5 and 3 year old and can't imagine them climbing some of the longer trails. We try to break up trips ( we stayed at Mizpah to go up Pierce)
so that the 5 year old doesn't walk more than 4 miles a day. We still bring the 3 year olds backpack and carry her when she gets tired. Our goal is to make the trips fun for the kids, more than work. My oldest daughter started when she was about 6 and hiked with me quite often until she went away to college. She indicated that she would love to go again. She is now 24. I feel that it should be enjoyable for the kids if you want them to keep hiking, even if it does mean turning back close to the top (which we have done)

 

[dug]

Does sound really scary. My brothers and sister all started very young (4-6 years old). We all still love the outdoors, but in different ways. One sails. One car camps. One has a surveying license. Three of us still hike and ski. We were never forced, but we never tried to hit so many so fast either. My first "big" peak was Mt. Flume when I was four. My younger brother already had maybe a dozen by the time he was six, including Washington. But, as we got older other sports took over and there wasn't the time to get them all by XYZ date. I don't think we ever thought about it.

As a new father of a 4-day old, I have thought quite a bit in the last few months about how to introduce her to the trails, but not like this gentleman has done. It seems that what was commonplace for us as kids (such as being caught in a rainstorm on Bondcliff with cotton sweatshirts and minimal supplies) would be taken as abuse by some. Was it? Never seemed like it. It poured, we ran down the trails, back to our tent, and changed. All had a big laugh. If that happened today, would I have to answer to the message boards? However, I have also had a friend tell me that "we'll need to call out the National Guard if your kid doesn't want to go hiking". I would certainly hope like hell that isn't true. All this is new, and this topic really, really hits home due to my recent addition.

I definantly think the line has been crossed in the example above. However, if you saw a six-year old 1/4 mile from the top of Washington coming up via the Jewell Trail, what would you have said? How about a four-year old on the ledges of the Flume Slide Trail? A gaggle of 6-12 year olds scattered across the Franconia Ridge Trail? I would assume the looks on their faces would provide you with the answer.

Very interesting topic. One I am going to have to think long and hard about in the future.

 

[sapblatt]

I know Mavs00 is playing devil's advocate, and I sure hope he's right otherwise these kids have a rotten life. It's a nice idea to teach your kids how to set and achieve goals, but this seems akin to those mothers who press their daughters into fashion shows at the age of 2 because that's what mom "says" her little girl wants. It's sick how some people treat their kids.

Smitty

Parents like this one make me wonder why he had kids? It certainly was not to bring another life into the world to love and nurture...it seems that it was to force these little people to do what he thinks they should do whether it is good for them or not...they could even get hurt. Very abusive...sounds like a drill seargent/cadet relationship.

I did look it up in Smith's book...a 4 1/2 year old has done the 48...i do not think the AMC advertises this record, but it is mentioned.

 

[Pucknuts61]

OK, I'll throw my hat into the political ring on this one.
Way too often we see these type of parents at all kinds of "childrens" activities whether it's hockey, baseball, dancing, soccer etc, and I find them to be not only destrcutive to their own kids, but also the way their approach spills over to other parents and kids at the same venue.
Hiking is just another one of those activities where the parent thinks they know what's best and pushes the kids too far.
This sounds like a classic example....and of course it's spilled over to this board.
What is the point of being the youngest hiker to do the 48? Is this some macho status symbol to show all your friends and co-workers?
Some parents need to be more involved in their childrens lives, while others need to be less involved.
I think one of the other things that bothers me goes back to the thread "why do you hike?". I don't think there was a single response that said "to get my 48 patch".
So once again the parent missed the concept here that hiking isn't for the recognition and a patch. Isn't the "family time" more important than a 2x3 piece of cloth?

My rant is over, sorry,
Bill