Complaints from a child. How much is enough?

[patrickbrusil]

Similar situation on passaconaway and whiteface.

My hiking partner and I made the long and tough climb over Whiteface and Passaconaway yesterday headed up the blueberry ledtge trail, across the ridge, and then traveling up the dicey's mills path to Passaconaway's summit. Upon reaching the second summit we were happy to have started at 7:30 in the morning and reached this point in less than six hours seeing as it is 7.5 miles. A family passed us on the way up with a daughter who looked as if she was in 5th grade - when we reached the summit the mother was talking up a storm about all the peaks she has done, which one had views, and so on. The little girl was passed out napping. I've done this on more than one occasion so I did not think much of it untill the mother made note that they had gone the same rout we did in 4 hours. 4 HOURS! The AMC guide lists 3 hrs 25 minutes just to the south summit of White Face. I couldn't help but feel bad for the girl as her mother continued to state that they were doing this to prepare for cross country ski trips. The girl did not complain but I had to wonder if she actually enjoyed this or not.

 

[Rik]

As a new father of a 4-day old,

Congrats on your addition!

 

[JohnL]

At the risk of taking an opposite track on this, let me play the devil’s advocate here. Let me pose some questions here point by point. Mind, you, I’m not disagreeing that some parents don’t go too far. I hear them every day at work. This Sunday’s Boston Globe Parade section had an interesting article on how some parent’s are ruining children’s sports with exactly this sort of behavior. I’m just wondering if we have painted a picture that is inaccurate from a brief snapshot in time.

1. I have read and re-read BigEarl’s post and not once in his email does he say that he heard the children complaining. The father said they were complaining. How can you make a judgment that they were complaining too much (or were close to crossing that line) if you never heard them complain in the first place? Would I then assume from now on that everyone I hear on the trail who is complaining is being abused or is being taken against their will? That would be an awful lot of hikers out there then.
2. “His eyes seemed to be shouting Take Me With You” is Earl’s interpretation of what he saw in the boy’s eyes. It could very well be that the boy was staring in awe at the big adult mountain climber. How many scout groups have you ever passed or how many adults have you passed on the way up the trail who had no happiness in their eyes? I cannot count the numbers of people who looked like they were suffering on the way up the trail and if I was to judge them by the look in their eyes then I would clearly judge them as unhappy.
3. Lots of people keep “scorecards” of their children. Their first crawl, their first rollover, their first step, their first word, their first day of school, their first dance recital, their first home run, and on and on. Most everyone here keeps scorecards of their own. I’m not sure how this is a problem or an indication of a problem.
4. When I was growing up the only things “scheduled” in the summer were my 12 Little League games. Otherwise we kids just played spontaneously. Today, everything for kids is scheduled, even play days for pre-schoolers who can barely walk. When was the last time you heard of a bunch of kids getting a pick up game of baseball going on their own?
5. While at the Lakes Hut a couple weekends ago, a man and his very young son (not more than 5) came up to the Hut. The little boy was clearly used to hiking around the trails and was familiar with his father’s gear. He cleanly unclipped the water bottle from a carabiner on his father’s pack and took a drink. For a little kid, he seemed to have a self-assurance far beyond his years. He walked around the Hut grounds with a very business-like attitude. But I did not see him smile once. Does that mean he was not happy?
6. If you had seen and heard me at certain points near the end of my 30 mile hike last week, you might assume that I was having a lousy time and was not having any fun. You’d be quite wrong.

All I am asking here is to reexamine the presented “facts” of which I see very few. Are we “convicting” this father based upon rumor, folklore and innuendo? I am concerned that we seem very quick to pass a negative judgment on someone based upon so little information.

Just my 2 cents.

JohnL

 

[smitty77]

As a new father of a 4-day old, I have thought quite a bit in the last few months about how to introduce her to the trails, but not like this gentleman has done.

Congrats on the new addition! Enjoy every single minute with her. For us, 3 years has gone by like it was 3 months. As for introducing her to trails...

I put mine into his Kelty KIDS carrier when he was 9 months old. We haven't yet done anything real big (Wachusett and Monadnock being the biggest) but we have done enough to whet his apetite for the trails. Everytime he sees the pack hanging in my workshop he says "Dada, go hike now?" even if it's 8:30 in the evening! On Saturdays when I go for my weekly hike/run with the dog I have to be sure to leave the house before he wakes up or he's just devastated when I leave without him.

He's just getting to the point where he'll be transferred to the ground, so we'll start all over again with short walks in the woods followed by some light to moderate hiking. I'm hoping for an ascent of Wachusett before Columbus day. If he has the energy to go down on his own it will be icing on the cake. If neither happens and I end up playing Sherpa again, it will still be a great day on the trails.

Smitty

 

[The Sikes]

I have my 2 kids I hike with. We started when Beth was 2 and I would drive up Pack Manadnock and then climb down or I would have her walk up for a bit and then carry her down while she slept soundly on my back. I never pushed my kids....if they were tired, we stopped and they played in the mud on the trail. Then we would go again. As they got stronger, we went further and tried to focus not just on hiking but on stuff around us learning about edible plants and stuff like that.

The youngest NH 4000 footer child I think is 4 years old and for me and my kids, it wasn't about getting to be the youngest but to get them out and to have them enjoy hiking and camping.

We have finished our Hundred Highest and my daughter is the youngest girl but that was not our goal, just something that happened. We are now working on NY. We were originally going to hike one set of mountains and then changed our minds because of the kids. I probably could have pushed them but I want them to always enjoy hiking. You can ask my kids yourselves. I always ask them if they want to hike and they have the option of opting out. They are stronger hikers than me so maybe that helps.

I do agree that sometimes you have to listen to a little grumbling but I think that that is natuaral for most people. I've hiked with adults that grumble. I grumble on occasion. I just ask the kids what is going on in their heads and try to see if they don't want to hike because they want to be at 6 Flags with their friends or if they really can't do what we are doing.

It sounds like this guy has confused his goal for his kids goals and that is sad. I have a niece that hates to hike because of a situation like that. We have slowly been working on helping her overcome that. You have to know your childs boundrys and respect them. Most people I know hate hiking for miles on end. I'm just lucky I have 2 kids that drag me out but I don't think that would have been the case if I pushed them.

 

[Darwin]

This weekend, my 5 year old hiked Mt. Cardigan. We saw many families of various ages and it was a very enjoyable day. However, although it is MY passion and I hike every free moment that I have, my son does not yet share this desire. SHOULD HE? At five years old, should he be tracked in to a "planned" schedule of completing a "list" that takes some adults years to complete? I agree with the comment that no one hikes to get the patch. At 3, 5, 7 years old, a child is developing their own sense of self, identity, independence. I would gladly take my son every single time I stepped out into the woods if I thought he could enjoy even half of the peace, satisfaction, the experience of it. He just isn't ready. The commitment that it takes to complete an 18 mile trek (even if it is just four miles a day) is just a lot to ask of a child that hasn't had enough life experiences to know if this is HIS/HER thing. To go back to my own child, I hadn't taken my son out hiking for over a year, he just wasn't up for it. The last time out, he just couldn't get into it. He had that LOOK in his eyes and it wasn't in AWE of the mountain. However, he skiied 30+ days and asked to every single time. NO records, no lists, no patches. Just lots of fun. I hope to go out on any trail again with him because I was SO PROUD of him and enjoyed watching him lead his family, encouraging his mom, stopping to appreciate the views and talking to fellow hikers; his new trail name is "happy hiker." As far as people that force their kids into their interests - this obviously is nothing new, little league, football, the Tiger Woods syndrome - How many Tiger Woods are there? Be prepared to be disappointed. Enjoy your kids for what they are. Its not quality time if only you get to have fun and do what YOU want. Previous posts have shown entire families that have incorporated the outdoors and hiking into the core of their lifestyle, but I would bet that they are not dictated by LISTS, schedules or into who the youngest was to complete xxx...D.

 

[Puma concolor]

There was a similar issue several years ago that the 46ers had to deal with, with the youngest winter 46er.

I believe you are referring to the Esper clan. I also believe Jonathan has gone on to love the outdoors as demonstrated in his web page:

http://home.messiah.edu/~je1187/highpointing.html

I maintain no position on this other than to say that it is hard to judge others according to our own standards.

 

[WhiteMTHike]

This is a thread that will surely generate some discussion, in fact it already has.

When I started reading your post I really thought you were overreacting. But when you stated the ages of the kids and described the blatant look of unhappiness on their faces then I began reading it from a different point of view.

I agree 100% with what 1ADAM12 had to say. Like him I'm introducing my son (2 years old) to hiking. I also have a Keltie carrier that my son loves to ride in. Last week I took him out of it and put him on the trail for the first time. He laughed and pretty much sprinted the trail. I slowed him down and explained (as best you can to a 2 year old) that you have to keep quiet on trails and slow down to enjoy them. Then he laughed and sprinted some more.

Bottom line, when he's older and outgrows the carrier I'm hoping that he shows the same enthusiasm for the trails that he did the other day; just at a slower pace. In other words I'm conditioning him to like hiking, not forcing. I think that is key. If when he gets older he decides that hiking isn't for him then yes I'll be disappointed but I won't force it on him, that'd just be a good way to ruin a father/son relationship. I'd also be willing to bet that he comes back to hiking someday, such as like I did, when he gets even older so I won't worry about it.

As for that father, well, I think he probably means well but he's actually destroying his relationship with his kids. They'll get older and have nothing but bad memories of hiking and probably turn against it. If he's this way with every hobby he has then they'll most likely turn against him as well. Hopefully somebody can open this guy's eyes for him and get him to see what he's actually doing.

 

[tonycc]

I would echo some of JohnL's thoughts, but he already said them so well.

A couple of additional points:
- I can't help but wonder how many people that are condeming this guy are parents? From my experience as a parent and a long time scout leader, most kids, even the youngest, can not be forced to do anything they do not want to do. In a test of will power, the young ones can win every time. They have no problem with making a scene in public. If they get tired, they will sit down and a herd of horses couldn't drag them to the top.
- While I don't like goals like this for children, I've seen plenty of children who have set goals for themselves and drag their parents along. Kids are people too, they have their own desires, drives and motivating factors.

Maybe the majority reactions so far are accurate, but maybe they aren't. AS a parent I am far from perfect. My parenting skills have been judged (and criticized) many times over the years, typically by those who don't have kids. Other parents tend to just smile and revel in the fact that it isn't them.

Food for thought.

Tony

 

[patrickbrusil]

I teach cello to 4th, 5th, and 6th graders as one of my odd jobs and to me it is a very similar situation to what is being discussed in this thread.

If a child is not into the cello I tell the parents to keep trying it for a few years but to never force it upon the kid. The only way for a child to truly enjoy the an instruments such as the cello, discover the rewards in playing it, and want to practice is if he or she takes it upon themselves. They can only be pushed so much before a hatred (strong word eh?) is developed.

This same principal applies to hiking - in my opinion. If it is forced upon a child they will usually go in the other direction. I have not read this entire thread and maybe this point was brought up. Sorry if that is the case

 

[JJD]

IMO, most of Big Earl's story doesn't sound all that bad, but the thing that really struck me was having 14 more peaks planned for this year. I can scarcely imagine doing that myself and I have a REALLY hard time believing a 3 or 5 yo would enjoy it...but I'm not a parent, or a kid, so I can't really say anything except that it sounds a bit "fishy".

 

[Sugarloafer]

I've read the original post a few times, as well as the replies and clearly this parent's behavior seem to be over the top. That said, based on the facts presented it would be difficult to conclude that this was anything more than pushy parent syndrome. Abuse is a pretty strong word and I'd need to see a lot more evidence before I'd throw out that accusation. I saw this type of behavior in almost every facet of my kids' lives as they were growing up.....school, sports, even the college admissions process. It seems that parents are absolutely obsessed with their kids excelling in something. Its funny that my oldest daughter (21) has been a ski instuctor at Sugarloaf for about 6 years and now she's seeing the same thing first hand with parents who think their kid's gonna be the next Bode Miller. One parent got mad at her last year for too many hot chocolate breaks on a minus 40 windchill day. Parents need to realize that if the kids don't want to do something , then eventually they won't and that by pushing them hard only ruins some potentially great times.

 

[Maddy]

Another point that thas not been discussed in how much is too much when one considers the skeletal system of a young child. It is in a state of continuous flux as the child grows and correct me if I'm wrong,but I think that most pediatricians would warn parents against overstressing their kids joints at such a young age.
I have been warned by my vets about doing this with my pups. I don't think it would be highly recommended for 3 and 5yr olds.