conditioning - running - what is good time??

[jrbren]

I run quite a bit, over 2000 miles per year, origianlly started to get in shape for hiking. I find running helps immeasurably for my enjoyment of hiking. I rarely sweat through t-shirts like I used to. However, as stated above, running alone is not adequate to prepare you for hiking. I got a dose of reality last summer when I focussed on running exclusively for the first half of the year and figured that would be fine for prep for my mountaineering camp in the Canadian Rockies. I was ofcourse wrong. Although I felt fine from a cardiovascular point of view, even at 11K feet, I developed a sharp pain on the insides of each knee that only asserted itself making a stepping up motion one makles walking up hill. This prevented me from making one of the climbs I wanted to make and made me very conservative for the rest of the camp. I think a running program supplememnetd with a couple of hikes permonth seems to work very well (got up to the Rainier Crater Rim several years ago). On pace, do not worry about average pace, If you could average 7min/mile pace for all of your runs that would be screaming fast, and probably win you some age group awards at local races. If your goal is not to run races or run fast, then don't. Focus on distance. That said, there are some significant fitness gains you can get by running fast. An ideal running program will have about 3 hard workouts per week. One at a interval pace (once or twice around a track, at 90%+ HR). This would be about as fast as one can run a mile if racing. Another workout would be at Tempo pace and be a sustained effort for 40-60 minutes at a "comfortably hard pace. This is right below lactic threshold pace. The 3rd hard workout would be a long, slow run at an easy pace(say 60-70% max HR). Other days of the week would be filled in with easy effort shorter workouts or cross training. It is important to have easier days to allow the body to recover from the hard runs, that is where fitness improvements come in. An excellent book on the subject is the Daniel's Running formula, which gives recommended paces for various work outs and explains what each workout is trying to accomplish. Net: do not run the same pace everyday for maximum benefit. Example paces are for me my long, slow pace is about 8:00-8:15min/mile, where I do the bulk of my running at, my interval pace would be about 6:15-6:20min/mile, and my tempo pace would be right at about 7min/mile. This usually puts me in the top 25-30% at most New England road races for my age group, some times higher up if no one fast shows up. Compared to recreational runners I do OK, but real racers would not break a sweat dusting me. You should not compare your paces to others because maximum fitness benefit comes from running at YOUR pace, based on your perceived effort or better yet a HRM.

 

[mavs00]

Just Be Careful

Some pretty good advice on here so far. I'd only add Be FRIGGIN' Careful . I'll explain. I used to be alot heavier and when I started hiking, I got in shape (ate better) and started running (jogging really). After losing about 65 lbs (down to 190#), I started getting pretty good at running (for my age and size) and began playing around with some competitive stuff like a few road races, and tri's (I'm a better swimmer and okay cyclist). I'm also 37 yrs old.

Anyway, the past couple years, my training pace was around 8:30 and I was hitting from 22:15 (5K) to 1:50:00 (1/2 marathon) which I thought was not bad for a borderline clydesdale . Trouble is, TRAINING AND RACING GETS ADDICTIVE, and I WANTED TO GET FASTER. Up till last year, all I ever did was endurance based runs (of 4-10 miles).

This off-season (winter), in an effort to get faster, I deceided to add some speed workouts (1 a week) and 1 hill workout. ADDED THEM TOO FAST, and didn't alow enough rest for my body to recover. You can guess where that led. About 1 month ago, I started getting hip and butt pain (came and went). I continued training and this week was diagnosed with a PIRIFORMIS RMI (repetitive motion injury). Which SUCKS and is quite literally a pain in the ass.

END RESULT -
Running is out for 2-3 weeks (at least), and then a careful step-by-step resumption, amd I 'll need to get on a strict stretching and strenthening program, and HOPEFULLY there will no long term effects. I may have caught it in time, before It got real bad, so perhaps it's just a small blip. Funny thing is, unless I rehab it just right, it may have a negative effect on my hiking this year. Wouldn't that be ironic; an injury while running to get in shape for hiking may prevent me from hiking as much and as hard I want .

BOTTOM LINE: Be careful whenever you add new elements into your training. Your times are fine, keep doing what your doing and if you want to get a bit faster, add some elements, just do it slowly and SMARTLY to avoid potential problems down the road.

 

[chomp]

Excellent point, Mavs, always listen to your body. My toes point out when I run (or walk, or sleep, etc..), but that has never really been until about two years ago. Then I started getting knee pain - in one knee?!?! Turns out, because my toes point out, and I was running quite a bit at the time (training for the Boston Marathon), my kneecap started sliding out of track. The knee pain was frm my kneecap rubbing up against my bone.

So, I went to PT for a couple of months, learned a few stretches and excersies to try and fix the problem and things are much better. There still is a little pain, but it keeps getting better every month. Now, however, I have to focus on keeping my toes straight when I run

With anything, but running epsecially, listen to your body, and if something bad is happening, go see an expert. Would you believe that stretching my hamstings and calf muscles helps my knee pain? I didn't at first.

 

[CaptainJim]

I think your time is great!

Now if you can keep that up for longer distances or/and add hills you'd have a helluva workout.

I used to do 5 mile workouts, little ups & downs but nothing great. Now instaed of adding miles (cuz it takes more time that I don't have) I instead run up and down Mount Wachusett for my 5 miles... it's 3.3 up (I think about 1200 vertical'), and 1.7 down. Ususlly takes me about 45 minutes up and 15 minutes down.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, I'm also pushing my 2 kids in their double jogger stroller (kids, food, water & stroller weight almost 120 pounds). I lost a lot of fat and my stamina has greatly improved (not to mention my wind).

Capt. Jim

 

[kltilton]

Captain Jim,

Are you the guy we saw pushing 2 kids in a baby stroller in the Mt. Wachusett Race last May? I finished 5th but I'm sure you worked a lot harder than I did! I'll be back at Wachusett in May. Maybe I'll see you there if you were the mystery man from last year.

Kevin

 

[sapblatt]

Wow

Captain Jim -

That is one hell of a great work out for a hiker...too bad Wachussets is 90 minutes from Peabody!

 

[CaptainJim]

Out taxes are too high for the town services we get...

Captain Jim -

That is one hell of a great work out for a hiker...too bad Wachussets is 90 minutes from Peabody!

I'm literally 5 minutes from Mt. Wachusett... I can see it from my street... convienent hiking & workouts especially since its a 3 1/2 hour ride to the Whites. I love it here in Hubbardston

Capt. Jim

 

[snowshoe]

I have been a runner as well. I ran in high School and College and also coached for a bit. Everyone gave great advise. Your best bet is to try everything and see what works best. I have found that Quality was always better than quantity. What worked best for me, was to run shorter distance but at a faster pace and then once a week I would do one long run. Overall it kept me from getting what runners call overuse injuries and kept me from burning out. I no longer run everyday but what I do is mix things up. I will run one day then the next i hit the bike or hike. In the winter I stop running and XC ski and snowshoe. This routin works well for me because I no longer race so speed is not important for me. I just concentrate working on my endurance and useing different muscles.

 

[John K]

8.2 a mile is a decent middle of the pack time. Age and size matter also. I have run for 20 years and weigh around 270lbs. I used to race and often entered events in what was then called the Hubba Bubba division and is now called Clydesdale. They figure your body size against that of the winner and compare them. My 8 minute miles often matched 6 minute miles for a 160 lb runner on the charts in terms of performance. So I guess it is all relative. The speed work is called fartleks and is worth doing once in awhile just so you can say fartlek. But speed work is tough and you can get more injuries - especially if you do not stretch properly. As far as time though I have found that as age slows me down I find that I enjoy the scenery and ability to meditate more. Try trail running it combines the best of both worlds.

 

[giggy]

awesoem feedback here - thanks all

I think I like captain jims run - going to try that.

actually captain - which trail is that? I normally train at monadnock but wachusett is closer and might be better timewise -

I have been up there - but not a while and memory is foggy about wachusett

 

[CaptainJim]

Actually......

awesoem feedback here - thanks all

I think I like captain jims run - going to try that.

actually captain - which trail is that? I normally train at monadnock but wachusett is closer and might be better timewise -

I have been up there - but not a while and memory is foggy about wachusett

Usually when I'm doing it I have the kids with me in the stroller so I'm limited to the Auto Road. But it's a nice run and you have some great views on the way up. It's 3.3 miles up because of the switchbacks.

or... if you want to add a little trail to your running you can park on Bolton Road and take the "Bolton Pond Trail" (.6 mi.) to "Old Indian Trail" (1.2 mi.) to the summit

or... Bolton (.6 mi.) to Old Indian, you go only about .3 mi then, then branch off right to "Semuhenna Trail" (1.1 mi.) to Harrington (.3 mi steep section) to Summit. The last section (Harrington) is a nice climb. Then depending on how you feel at the top you can take an easy way down like Old Indian (1.2) all the way back to Bolton. This makes a nice loop. 4.5 miles minimum... not quite as long as the Auto Road loop but MUCH more difficult!

There are lots of great loops you can make like park on Westminster Road and take Harrington all the way up then come down Jack Frost to High Meadow (steep decent here) to Echo Lake and back to Westminster Road down the road (it's a dirt road) back to your car.

Have fun & see ya there!

Capt. Jim

see map at http://www.mass.gov/dcr/parks/trails/WachusettMtn.gif

 

[VFTTop'r]

Check this site out it may give you some helpful info on running.

www.halhigdon.com

 

[CaptainJim]

giggy... where in Mass you from?

I just came back from a run. Went to Wachusett, with the kids of course. I couldn't push them up the Auto Road as there is still too much snow. They don't plow it in winter and it's popular with the x-country crowd so I wouldn't go tearing it up with bare boots. A run up in snowshoes would be cool though... but of course there's no way to push a stroller in a foot (or more) of snow. I've thought about attaching skis somehow... maybe next winter.

Anyway, because I couldn't go to the top and down, instead I ran AROUND the mountain. Its about 8 miles and there's plenty of nice "hill training" involved. I parked at the State Park Info Center parking lot near the top and did a clockwise loop. South on Mountain Road, take a right onto Westminster Road (now going kinda NW), follow that to the junction of Greene and West Princeton Rd. Bear right onto West Princeton Rd. now going North (this is the dirt road I spoke of in my earlier post, not Westminster Rd.), follow this till you take a right onto Bolton Road (now going East), follow this to the end and take another right onto Mile Hill Road (now going south again), stay on this and when you enter Princeton it turns into Mountain Road again. Run up the mountain to finish your loop and back into the parking lot.

Pushing the kids it took me 2 hours... as I said, about 8 miles. Have fun!!!

Capt. Jim

 

[Stan]

The best exercise for hiking is ...

HIKING!

I hate running. I hate it with a passion. But I do it. I even time myself for a good laugh now and then.

Why do I run? Partly as a constitutional, partly to burn up calories during an otherwise inactive week, partly to maintain stamina for hiking, partly to assure healthy blood pressure and cholesterol and partly to justify a forthcoming big meal.

I only run a couple miles a day and only a few times a week ... but it serves its purpose with no strain on any bones, joints or muscles.

What is good time??? Hiking or having drinks with friends, that's good time!

I hate calisthenics, too. It hate it with a passion. But I do it. I even count for a good laugh ...

 

[CaptainJim]

I hear ya Stan......

HIKING!

I hate running.

True on both counts!!! They call it Sport Specific Training... ie: HIKE to get in shape for HIKING! Makes sense don't it?

I hate "running" too. That's why my "runs" are actually jogs (as my times show). Intervals of fast walking with intervals of slow running depending on how I feel at the moment. Today I had planned on hiking... so I wore my leather hiking boots... I ended up "running" so I didn't have the best footware on for what I was doing.

Alone my "runs" are just under 10 minutes per mile... pushing the kids about 15 minute miles. But I do get my heart rate up and keep it up without stopping for at least an hour to as much as three without stopping. I even "drink on the run".

Like you said... don't always enjoy the "runs" but I feel great after doing them.

Peace Out,
Capt. Jim