Cost of hiking on Franconia Ridge - fail

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The 'fee for service' idea make sense, but it still makes me wonder about the out of town driver using the local services of the town. Why not recoup those charges? The big difference seems to be that the local agencies are already funded, whereas F&G is not.

Such is the nature of politics and agency funding in the State of New Hampshire. IF it was politically popular to fund F&G out of the General Fund, then we wouldn't be having this conversation at all. Note that the State Parks are all self-funded as well as F&G. As for out-of-town, well, it seems to be a reciprocal agreement that the towns provide fire and police service. Primarily these two services are provided under the umbrella of public safety, not for your personal safety, per se.

Tim
 
Rangers and SAR volunteers must now be required to give the victim their Miranda rights.

Makes you want to be tight lipped when the SAR does show up. A "thank you" and then shut-up.

This is smart approach, on more then a few charged rescues, the F&G folks have reportedly asked casual questions of the rescued individual that have been used to incriminate them later on.
 
"The difference is that the hunter or fisher is paying a hefty fee for their license so it covers the expense."

As someone who's introduction to the woods was hunting and fishing, well aware of this line of reasoning. As to expense, in many places a simple small game hunting license or fishing-only is very inexpensive. Even cheaper alternatives are weekend or 1 week licenses.
In most states those license fees go into a dedicated funds for fish and wildlife preservation and propagation so arguing the license fee helps partially defray SAR doesn't work.
Does a birder, mushroom hunter, or wildlife photographer who doesn't bring a pad, stove and bivvy receive a bill for going out in bad weather or using bad judgment? The only thing I'm getting at is that these SAR fees seem to be aimed at hikers.
 
They can do one of three things:

1. Charge everybody regardless of negligence. You are using a service so you should pay. That way no excuses, you don't have the card you pay the cost of the rescue.
2. Charge no one and the rescue is out of the goodness of their hearts.
3. Scrap the SAR all together and if you get hurt in the woods you lay there until your friend or loved one realizes you are missing. Hopefully you have some friends that can come out and drag you out of the woods.

I feel option 1 is the best option. You got hurt, you need the help, so you should pay. We aren't entitled to anything. People will buy the card and if they don't have it and they don't want to pay the fee then hopefully you aren't hurt bad enough that you can't hull yourself out of the woods or your friends find you in time. I will pay the $25 or join the American Alpine Club for $80 and get the insurance plus a couple of nice books and discounts.
 
Unlike many people it seems, I do agree that his outstanding medical history is problematic. It is not to say that he should not hike at all....however, he did choose to do something risky as far as his particular hike involving some above tree-line. Depending on where his 4.9 miles was proposed....is another issue. I assume he headed to greenleaf from the notch with a short stretch above tree-line on that curved ridge, and hopefully not on the northern bias of the notch which is exposed and ledgy. The other factor is that the weather deteriorated, and I dont know what the forecast was for that day; whether or not there was plausible risk or uncertainty which he accepted or not. This issue really concerns me, however the idea that the solo hiking divisive concern comes into play is most likely a fear based concern that ultimately only came into being because of his medical issues......compounded with solo hiking, age, and weather. The idea that we could all be subjected to a bad precedent in the solo hike scenario; I doubt very much.
whats interesting is that his lawyer said "the weather deteriorated after"....I fond this funny because I think most Americans and westerners in general view everything in a vacuum....as if the perilous event of his injury had nothing to do with the arrival of perilous weather. Though we cannot charge anyone with being clairvoyant or preternaturally perceptive, A true hiker does learn and come to know when an auspicious time is present and when it is not. The mountains speak very loudly to those with humility and kindness. Have I been caught in small viable mistakes before?? have the mountains reminded me, and punished me with a stern warning?? YES....but I listen to the warning. This does NOT mean I think I wont get injured or that I have no compassion for this man. but you can ask yourself.....if he had not pushed it, would it have happened??? I doubt it. we go to that outdoor cathedral because it does dole out unmitigated truth and consequence .....we go for that apical moment which requires apical decisions, complete presence, and virtuous,altruistic positive mind.....yet we look little at how consequence and cause and effect are very different in the mountains......they DO have a ripening effect that IS different from at home, not matter what anyone says.
My main concern is that I dont want the precedent to be set that we can be charged for humanity-based services. This casts a climate of resentment and doubt into rescuers who know someone may not pay(immediately).....it also touches on the issue that indeed these services should be free of charge as they are in Europe. However, we do have to account for 2 issues; 1. that NH does not have income tax, and 2) that federal income should cover this expense, and despite what anyone says...is entirely affordable. BUT, the reality is that fiscal responsibility in a nation of our size will not happen. we should be divided into provinces of smaller effective governance where states individual economic,resource and climate issues can be administered with specific dexterity.
That said, a small fee to support rescues would be good. I dont accept that the state should have to pay for it. The FED should pay, BUT we live in a bogus world and we have to be realistic. IF that does happen, then the fee must be nominal, even less than 25 dollars, to ensure/reduce that we are not seen as an exploitable cash cow.....Ultimately,we should be looking to Europe and Canada for answers. The mom and pop hiking crowd of the early nineties is gone. The internet has ushered in WMNF use on an unprecedented scale. You essentially have a seasonal municipal structure and economy that needs to be managed. This little NH make people pay routine is sort of a childish and pejorative blame game that misses the issue. The issue is they have been collecting meals tax and drawing crowds in for years, and now its time to pay the piper and put some pants on, man up and get organized. Yes, some people are foolhardy. but scapegoating them with aggressive and narrow focused tactics is not going to birth a golden age......last but not least, it emphasizes the need for a hikers guild exacting an altruistic and benevolent influence that the AMC fails to because its a money farm, and for outward bound style training to become more popular. When I was younger, everyone was much more experienced,lucid and grounded.....not on cell phones, not charging batteries in the sun. Trash everywhere now....a whole nother issue at the heart of this.....a societal problem, over-worked, ungrounded, electronisized, un-clear heads heading out into a ruthless place and making in-organic decisions......and dont get me started on the HUTS....HE WAS " JUST TRYING TO MAKE IT TO THE HUT" just a short distance to salvation, as if the mountains are a sidewalk.....those huts are a serious issue of safety and over-use/erosion. not even gonna go there.
 
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The 'fee for service' idea make sense, but it still makes me wonder about the out of town driver using the local services of the town. Why not recoup those charges? The big difference seems to be that the local agencies are already funded, whereas F&G is not.
You haven't been in an auto accident lately :)

Someone I know was transported from their home to the hospital half a mile away by the FD ambulance, and received a bill for almost $1000

The Franconia Ridge case was not a "search" or "rescue" so much as an evacuation, similar to an ambulance ride and should have been billable to health insurance but F&G refuses to consider it
 
You haven't been in an auto accident lately :)

Someone I know was transported from their home to the hospital half a mile away by the FD ambulance, and received a bill for almost $1000

The Franconia Ridge case was not a "search" or "rescue" so much as an evacuation, similar to an ambulance ride and should have been billable to health insurance but F&G refuses to consider it

Then the health insurer (if any) should have been served with a third party complaint by the defendant hiker in this instance. Once that's done, sit back (at least on the medical questions) and let someone with unlimited access to medical experts have a go at the plaintiff.
 
I can't imagine any reasonable person would advocate a system in which the rescue service provider determines, on a case by case basis, if the rescued party should pay for services, and then litigates each individual case to enforce the judgement. Yet that seems to be the situation that Mr. Bacon and Fish and Game are in.
I also don't think it's reasonable the those who buy hunting or fishing licenses pay for rescue services while other back country users get a free pass.
A better system, in my opinion, would require all users to contribute to fund search and rescue, and be simple, transparent, and dedicated to that purpose. How to collect the money? I would suggest as a model the National Forest Adventure Pass program used in parts of California. The system requires vehicles parked in certain recreational areas and adjacent roads to display a parking pass. The pass costs $5/day of $35/year, and they are sold at nearly every business close to the area in question, and also at ranger offices. Vehicles parked without the pass are subject to a fine, $100 if I recall. It's simple for the users, and reasonable enough that most users comply voluntarily.
 
I can't imagine any reasonable person would advocate a system in which the rescue service provider determines, on a case by case basis, if the rescued party should pay for services, and then litigates each individual case to enforce the judgement. Yet that seems to be the situation that Mr. Bacon and Fish and Game are in.
I also don't think it's reasonable the those who buy hunting or fishing licenses pay for rescue services while other back country users get a free pass.
A better system, in my opinion, would require all users to contribute to fund search and rescue, and be simple, transparent, and dedicated to that purpose. How to collect the money? I would suggest as a model the National Forest Adventure Pass program used in parts of California. The system requires vehicles parked in certain recreational areas and adjacent roads to display a parking pass. The pass costs $5/day of $35/year, and they are sold at nearly every business close to the area in question, and also at ranger offices. Vehicles parked without the pass are subject to a fine, $100 if I recall. It's simple for the users, and reasonable enough that most users comply voluntarily.

We do have a parking pass system in the White Mountain National Forest. Since it's part of the USFS and NH F&G handles rescues, their is no connection. Could NH sue the Dept. of the Interior for services they provide in the National forest without reimbursement? I visit the National Forest but in many cases, eat and sleep in NH towns, do the towns want the state to sue the tourist engine in the region? I've threatened (too harsh) to hike outside of NH because of any proposed fees but it's unlikely, I'm in NY more lately because of a favorable rental situation and I need eight ADK peaks for my 115. It's been a few years since I've been on some NH favorites, I am hopeful to see my old friends again this year.
 
I would love to see how they itemized that bill. Most of the heavy lifting is being done by volunteer S&R teams that are not being paid or reimbursed. So having one or two Rangers on site coordinating efforts by others is worth $9,300?
 
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I would love to see how they itemized that bill. Most of the heavy lifting is being down by volunteer S&R teams that are not being paid or reimbursed. So having one or two Rangers on site coordinating efforts by others is worth $9,300?

Excellent question. Perhaps a Blackhawk was in the wings warming up?
 
There are numerous threads on the generic topic of funding, and I'd like to see those used for the general discussion. I.e., let's not turn this instance into another generic debate.

Tim
 
Another concern I have with respect to giving information to F&G that may come back to bite you in the ass is what if you are a WFA or WFR and happen upon a hiker who is injured. You are trained to ask certain questions as part of the triage procedure. I would be hard pressed to relay any of that to F&G knowing that they will use that information against the injured hiker. I wonder what SOLO’s stance is on a WFA or WFR refusing to relay any information that he or she obtained for the injured hiking during the evaluation stage to F&G. Thoughts?
 
I suspect that finding someone up on the ridge with "two canes" and location of the injury predisposed the Rangers to classifying this negligent behavior. When the weather and solo status are combined with the two canes, nature of the injury and the previous medical history I can understand the determination that he should not have been hiking alone in the rain. I disagree with that decision but it is a reasonable conclusion.

How did they know about his medical history? Makes you want to be tight lipped when the SAR does show up. A "thank you" and then shut-up.

I agree about the canes being a factor. I have mixed feelings about the issue of negligence. We don't want to take people's freedoms or think for them with government. I think the SAR staff as well as the state see the issue from the side of the risk brought to rescuers in bad weather; where if one of them or more got injured in the wind-falling; costs would escalate, especially if the I jury nature required helicopters to expedite. Helo rescues are also dangerous. The big thing for me is this," did he know he could be held accountable??" and if virtually all people are notified, does that tilt case by case decisions? I think so. I don't think anyone's doctor wants to tell them not to do something healthy and liberating. personal hobbies are part of wellness, but that doesn't necessarily mean the doctor really thought he was without risk. We all live with risks, and that was obviously one the doctor a counted for on some level, but a medical proclamation can't be extended to account for another area of expertise such as mountain travel. It would be interesting to see what an in depth analysis from a risk management standpoint would reveal in terms of statistics about injury/rescues and levels of competence.
 
I personally think honesty is always the best policy. Come what may, might be a good thing, not bad. When we start holding back, when do we stop, how do we remember how far off track we went?
 
I personally think honesty is always the best policy. Come what may, might be a good thing, not bad. When we start holding back, when do we stop, how do we remember how far off track we went?

This is certainly admirable, but a balance must be drawn in the real world and we must avoid loading the weapons of those who would do us harm. I heard an interview with (now retired) US Supreme Court justice John Paul Stevens, who was asked about 'technicalities' and Miranda rights: he said (I paraphrase) that it's not that you have something to hide, it's that you have something to protect. This inspires me to remember a 'Dear Abby' maxim that no one can abuse you without your permission. Truthfulness in a rescue situation may be vital, but one should also be a good steward of one's own future as well.

Of course, this is a scenario where one may not be able to predict how one will behave until one gets there.
 
The charge was $9300. I'm wondering how much the guy has paid out in lawyer fees, "expert" fees and travel costs from Michigan to NH already just to dispute it. Same goes for F&G. Have they paid out more in fees than they will eventually get returned once the various appeals have been settled.
 
I personally think honesty is always the best policy. Come what may, might be a good thing, not bad. When we start holding back, when do we stop, how do we remember how far off track we went?

That's an impressively wise adage. It smacks of someone who's actually concerned themselves with virtue and the inherent benefits derived from it. Though I've learned sometimes the virtue of truth can be particularly inflammatory or draw jealousy and harm; what you have to say is nevertheless the most organic thing I've heard anyone on here say and it doesn't surprise me your a N-Hampshirite.
 
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