Daniel Eagan
Active member
elhefe007a said:
I don't see any remorse or even accountability in this e-mail exchange. These guys don't think they did anything wrong, and it looks like they're going back to do the same thing on Panther and Santanoni.
Cutting blazes on Couchsachraga
- Thread starter mavs00
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I don't see any remorse or even accountability in this e-mail exchange. These guys don't think they did anything wrong, and it looks like they're going back to do the same thing on Panther and Santanoni.
KMartman
New member
Daniel Eagan said:
They actually feel like theyre "entitled" to do it becasue they "live" in the ADK's...so just because you live there you have a "right" to do trail maintenance and blaze trails?
They obviously lack true backcountry knowledge..or any LNT rules.
Sad...I dont hike much in the ADK's, but hate seeing scarred trees and the like.
Hopefully they will learn and remedy their ways.
M
AntlerPeak
New member
Hmm, these guys obviously went over the top. It will be interesting to get D.E.C.'s take on this. I can't help but wonder how that ranger who was militant over the Owl's Head cairn would react to these guys.
TCD
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Well this thread has cooled down a little. There have been a lot of good, measured statements in here, and unfortunately also some harsher words on both sides, that only have the effect of stimulating more of the same. I certainly hope the folks doing the cutting can see the importance of this, and I'm glad for all the education for everyone.
I think, on another thread, we might want to discuss what is and isn't OK on trails, and "herd paths," and in entirely untracked woods. I know the LNT principles, and I know there was another thread last year about some of this, but it's a good topic worth revisiting.
I think, on another thread, we might want to discuss what is and isn't OK on trails, and "herd paths," and in entirely untracked woods. I know the LNT principles, and I know there was another thread last year about some of this, but it's a good topic worth revisiting.
mavs00
New member
mavs00 said:
Spongebob,
Please re-read my initial statement. Not sure if your critical words are directed at me or not. The initial post, which I hesitated to write because I knew that MANY people were angry about the event, and the potential for ugliness was ripe. I choose to go ahead, because the message was important (IMO). I made a DELIBERATE attempt to state that the objective here was education, Not chastation (and by default, embarrassment or public condemnation). The assumption was that because the transgression was blatantly posted in several locations, it was more likely a "Whoops, sorry folks we did not realize" situation than anything else.
I'm a "glass full" kinda guy and give the benefit of the doubt first. I don't apologize for it. The debate was initiated on another forum and was posted here simply because incident was presented here first. I thought a public "please don't do this" was as measured and benign as you could get.
With that said, I am very disappointed with your post. Primarily because, in this situation, the persons involved have made contact both -HERE- and -HERE- (which is better, but still a hostile tone in general). My fear is that reading this thread, given his responses so far, he'll read your post as tacit approval from some of the hiking community, and that only a few of us "wingnuts" that perhaps are off base. I beleive that is the wrong message to send.
Irregardless of anyone's personal feelings for a particular mountain or path (I recently b-whacked Fishing Brook #4 and if I had my druthers, I'd nuke the SOB out of existence), it is never appropriate to do harm to live trees in any effort, heinous or otherwise. NYS thinks so too, as the activity is ILLEGAL (see §190.8 part G). Which states;
The penalty is $250 per tree (plant). Others, upset with the response have taken it further, which is there right. Personally, I just don't ever want it to happen again.
Sorry, you feel the way you do (Spongebob), and I've always enjoyed reading your witty post and contributions. This time, however, I am disappointed the condemnation isn't universal and the message clear (your post leaves room for doubt).
Perhaps, I'm reading your message wrong, but if I am, so may others be. I expect post this will be my last on the matter.
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Peakbagr
Well-known member
Given the nature of the offense and the attitude of who those who did it, I hope that law enforcement metes out the full penalty of the law. Whats more, once this goes into the public record, full publicity should be done, with the idea that others may learn by example and avoid the behavior and what the consequences are.
I sent every scrap of information to the law enforcement people involved, including the VFTT trip post, their own laughing about it on their blog, and copies of combatant and defiant email they've sent to others.
We're trying to tee it up for DEC. Because of what they've done, and where they've done it, the next couple of generations of hikers gets to be reminded of this every time they are in the Santanoni Range. Now, instead of being in one of the most remote and wild sections of the ADKs, we'll be stumbling on the handiwork of a trio of dolts who had to machete their way across what they feel is the best way to traverse the Panther-Couch ridge, winter or summer.
If you get arrested, your name, address and perp walk go on TV and in the newpapers.
You do it in the backcountry, its everyone's duty to have them do the perp walk here.
I join Tim in expressing my disappointment in parts of your post and have always liked to read your contributions. Perhaps if this were your home range, you might feel a little more identification with the sense of violation many of us are experiencing.
I sent every scrap of information to the law enforcement people involved, including the VFTT trip post, their own laughing about it on their blog, and copies of combatant and defiant email they've sent to others.
We're trying to tee it up for DEC. Because of what they've done, and where they've done it, the next couple of generations of hikers gets to be reminded of this every time they are in the Santanoni Range. Now, instead of being in one of the most remote and wild sections of the ADKs, we'll be stumbling on the handiwork of a trio of dolts who had to machete their way across what they feel is the best way to traverse the Panther-Couch ridge, winter or summer.
If you get arrested, your name, address and perp walk go on TV and in the newpapers.
You do it in the backcountry, its everyone's duty to have them do the perp walk here.
I join Tim in expressing my disappointment in parts of your post and have always liked to read your contributions. Perhaps if this were your home range, you might feel a little more identification with the sense of violation many of us are experiencing.
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mavs00
New member
Willie
Member
Eric, do the right thing. Call the DEC and tell them what you did. The number for DEC's Ray Brook headquarters is: (518) 897-1200. Or, since it's only about 40 miles from where you live, perhaps you should report your actions in person. The address for DEC's Ray Brook headquarters is: 1115 NYS Route 86, Ray Brook, NY 12977.
Let's face it, Eric, you can't click your heels together three times and make this go away. Don't listen to me - ask Samantha what you should do.
Let's face it, Eric, you can't click your heels together three times and make this go away. Don't listen to me - ask Samantha what you should do.
I mostly lurk here because I tend to be a bushwhacker rather then a peakbagger. However, given the severity of this offense, I feel obligated to chime in with my nicles worth....
I too feel that this is so serious and that the attitude, lack of remorse and accountability by the perpertrator should be dealt with severely. I'm not worried about embarrasing this guy, he deserves it, and a lot more.
At any rate, it's time for the DEC Enforcement to step in and flex their muscles. With the documentation and pictures of this EXTENSIVE damage, and the obvious attempt by the individual to now cover his tracks, if they do nothing then they will have lost my respect and the respect of the outdoor ommunity in general.
I certainly hope that as a result of the defacing and attitude that this person will NEVER be recognized by the 46'ers. I think this behavior is the antithesis of what we all stand for.
Following is a copy of my communication to the DEC...
"Department of Environmental Conservation
Enforcement Division
I imagine you have had numerous complaints about this incident by now. The whole backpacking and peakbagging community is up in arms, as they should be.
to compound the situation, the attitude and posts of Eric V. Bretthauer, Route 3 in Cadyville, NY, indicate that he has no remorse over this incident at all. In fact he has now taken his blog off line and done all he can do to erase his tracks including trying to fool everyone that he lives in Montreal.
In my 64 years, this is the most blatant case of vandalism I have ever seen. Not only should Bretthauer be prosecuted to the full extent possible, including paying the maximum fine for every tree defaced, it is important that this case be in the public eye as an example of what will happen to future perpetrators.
There exists from other sources, captures of his blog stating that he blazed the trail, posts on forums such as http://adkforum.com by Bretthauer clearly showing he has no remorse about the incident, as well as one message in which he signs it with his full name, leaving no doubt as to his identity.
I believe that several and organizations are so outraged about this incident that the press has been notified. If Bretthauer and any companions are not charged and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, then many of us will have to wonder why any agencies exist to handle this matter.
If I may be of assistance in any way, do not hesitate to contact me. I assure you that I have never met Bretthauer and that there is nothing personal about this complaint.
Sincerely,
William Redhawk"
I reiterate, in cases like this all of us who love the outdoors need to do whatever is necessary within the law, including embarrassing the people who commit this type of vandalism.
perhaps we should republish the obituaries of Dan'l boone and Davy Crockett so people will know that their time has passed........
Redhawk
I too feel that this is so serious and that the attitude, lack of remorse and accountability by the perpertrator should be dealt with severely. I'm not worried about embarrasing this guy, he deserves it, and a lot more.
At any rate, it's time for the DEC Enforcement to step in and flex their muscles. With the documentation and pictures of this EXTENSIVE damage, and the obvious attempt by the individual to now cover his tracks, if they do nothing then they will have lost my respect and the respect of the outdoor ommunity in general.
I certainly hope that as a result of the defacing and attitude that this person will NEVER be recognized by the 46'ers. I think this behavior is the antithesis of what we all stand for.
Following is a copy of my communication to the DEC...
"Department of Environmental Conservation
Enforcement Division
I imagine you have had numerous complaints about this incident by now. The whole backpacking and peakbagging community is up in arms, as they should be.
to compound the situation, the attitude and posts of Eric V. Bretthauer, Route 3 in Cadyville, NY, indicate that he has no remorse over this incident at all. In fact he has now taken his blog off line and done all he can do to erase his tracks including trying to fool everyone that he lives in Montreal.
In my 64 years, this is the most blatant case of vandalism I have ever seen. Not only should Bretthauer be prosecuted to the full extent possible, including paying the maximum fine for every tree defaced, it is important that this case be in the public eye as an example of what will happen to future perpetrators.
There exists from other sources, captures of his blog stating that he blazed the trail, posts on forums such as http://adkforum.com by Bretthauer clearly showing he has no remorse about the incident, as well as one message in which he signs it with his full name, leaving no doubt as to his identity.
I believe that several and organizations are so outraged about this incident that the press has been notified. If Bretthauer and any companions are not charged and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, then many of us will have to wonder why any agencies exist to handle this matter.
If I may be of assistance in any way, do not hesitate to contact me. I assure you that I have never met Bretthauer and that there is nothing personal about this complaint.
Sincerely,
William Redhawk"
I reiterate, in cases like this all of us who love the outdoors need to do whatever is necessary within the law, including embarrassing the people who commit this type of vandalism.
perhaps we should republish the obituaries of Dan'l boone and Davy Crockett so people will know that their time has passed........
Redhawk
spongebob
New member
Wow, I don't go on Views for awhile and I get pummeled and red squared. This is why I go for comic relief, as I am weird and hard to understand.
I saw this thread primarily as a leave no trace thread and not the mainly Couchsachraga incident. I saw Tim's statement broadly directed at everyone for LNT.
I think what was done on Couchsachraga was wrong and the person(s) should be brought under the law and prosecuted, and given punishment if convicted.
My point is I don't like to learn or teach by embarrassment. (As in LNT in this instance.) And I felt a point was reached that did not need to keep on being crossed. As in, I got the point of Leave No Trace and the point of the horrible vandalism on Couchsachraga.
But as the focus of the thread was to the person(s) who did the vandalism. Maybe I am stupid into thinking everything is directed at me. (As I am the most important person in my world......ok, 2nd most important as David Hasselhoff rocks.)
That is my opinion and if you want to continue to red square for that opinion then feel free.
Questioning my ethics, feelings for the woods, or character on the whole issue by people is your right. But it does not mean you are right.
I saw this thread primarily as a leave no trace thread and not the mainly Couchsachraga incident. I saw Tim's statement broadly directed at everyone for LNT.
I think what was done on Couchsachraga was wrong and the person(s) should be brought under the law and prosecuted, and given punishment if convicted.
My point is I don't like to learn or teach by embarrassment. (As in LNT in this instance.) And I felt a point was reached that did not need to keep on being crossed. As in, I got the point of Leave No Trace and the point of the horrible vandalism on Couchsachraga.
But as the focus of the thread was to the person(s) who did the vandalism. Maybe I am stupid into thinking everything is directed at me. (As I am the most important person in my world......ok, 2nd most important as David Hasselhoff rocks.)
That is my opinion and if you want to continue to red square for that opinion then feel free.
Questioning my ethics, feelings for the woods, or character on the whole issue by people is your right. But it does not mean you are right.
king tut
New member
I enjoy the Spongebob videos and posts.
There is a time and place for teaching and discipline. Reading the original post of this machete guy, I didn't get the impression that he was on a mission to hack down the whole forest in order to upset nature loving folk. He sounded like he was trying to help people climb the mountain b/c it was a forested bushwack. Maybe he was a bit misguided. How about education before crucifiction?
There is a time and place for teaching and discipline. Reading the original post of this machete guy, I didn't get the impression that he was on a mission to hack down the whole forest in order to upset nature loving folk. He sounded like he was trying to help people climb the mountain b/c it was a forested bushwack. Maybe he was a bit misguided. How about education before crucifiction?
Skyclimber
New member
king tut said:
I personally don't think it took a lack of education here, it took a lack of intelligence on this guy's part. Only common sense should of told Eric that hacking the whole Forest, wasn't the right thing to do. How many other beginner hikers do we have on these Forums, that respect the Mountains and trails and don't go hacking up the trails and herdpaths? He is certainly old enough to realize that this kind of behavior is not acceptable and is wrong!! Why make excuses for this guy?
Couchsachraga is not a forested bushwhack. It is a perfectly straightforward herdpath from Times Square to it's summit.
Tom Rankin
Well-known member
Not in Winter!Skyclimber2971w said:
See for instance:
http://vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11571
NOTE: I am not endorsing the blazing actions.
Rik
New member
My favorite memory from this past winter was from the trip Tom refers to. No one in the several groups out that day reached either Couch or Sant. There were many experienced people out there but the mountain and the conditions sent us all back down. It had snowed throughout the day and the walk out was one of the most interesting I can remember. Everyone was quiet including our snowshoes in the soft snow. It was a very calm feeling as people reflected on the days events. To go back a week later with Eric, Pierre (oncoman) and Rejean, on a nice day to climb these peaks just perfected the memory from the week before. Now those two days are forever linked in my mind. I believe later that winter all three of my partners completed their 46W. The struggle with Couch a big part of the experience for all of us. It wouldn't have been the same had the trail been blazed. Now as I help my wife climb the 46 we have a trip planned for this range in a couple of weeks. I feel sad that she won't get to experience Couch the same way that many of us have. I feel like she has been cheated out of part of the experience of climbing the 46. I imagine that now that the blazes are there the traffic will increase to these peaks and the already obvious herd path will become more of a muddy trail. Couch will never be the same. As horrific as the damage to the trees is it has already been discussed. But the fact that this inconsiderate person stole the experience away from future hikers really saddens me more than I can say.
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elhefe007a
New member
If he is trying to become a 46er(and personally, I hope he never gets the chance), he should reconize that these mountains should be difficult, not easy. I recently was talking about this with a couple 46ers (#909 and #1248), and they were completely taken aback. Both are NE115'ers, and for them the heart and soul of earning membership in that club were the brutal but great memories of mountains like Couchsachraga. (I'm up to 83 on the 115, and I completely agree with that statement.) I've climbed the 48 in NH, and while I love that area, the wild places like the Sanantoni Range and the Dix Range, comming out bloody, clothes shredded, muddy and tired will probably make me remember those more than any of them.
There are plenty of clubs where each mountain has a trail that is nice and blazed, there is a reason these arent.
The guy coudn't even put forth a real apology, he gets zero sympathy from me.
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Skyclimber
New member
Tom Rankin said:Not in Winter!
See for instance:
http://vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11571
NOTE: I am not endorsing the blazing actions.
We are not talking about Winter here. Even if we were, it still gives no right to any individual to blaze the route to Couchsachraga!
No pun intended but I know you had a tough go at Couchsachraga in Winter. I have climbed this same mountain in Winter several times. I happen, to enjoy the challenge this Mountain gave to me. Climbing these mountains in any season, should give all of us the right to a challenge but now that right has been taken away from all of us.
Tom Rankin
Well-known member
Skyclimber,Skyclimber2971w said:
I agree with most of what you said. But this does impact Winter as well as all season hiking. If these blazes were there last winter, a lot of people would not be planning a repeat trip to Couchie. I'm not saying that's a good thing, just a fact. If my own experience is any indicator, (and from what I've read, it is), Couch is much more difficult in Winter than Summer.
If you read my post (and it sounds like you did), you will note that I was humbled by Couch. It was my first 'failure' in over 200 attempts. Not that I am somehow 'great' by doing this, but in my own mind, I was confident I could do almost anything. Couch taught me a valuable lesson. There might be 1 less peak in the ADKs that can teach that lesson now, and to tell the truth, that's a little saddening to me.
Skyclimber
New member
Tom Rankin said:
If others must make another attempt on Couchsachraga this Winter because of their unsuccessful attempt on it last Winter, that is all in "The Game of Winter Hiking." Part of the challenge of Winter Hiking is wondering if we are going to make the summit or not. I have made six successful Winter climbs of Couchsachraga and they weren't successful because the route was blazed out for me, with a machette.
One's success rate should not be at the expense of the trees being blazed out for them, Summer or Winter. I too, am extremely upset of the trail destruction up this Mountain. Couchsachraga always afforded me that Winter Challenge that most Winter Climbers crave for!
disclaimer: I am in no way condoning the actions of that hack.
But something said a few posts back got me thinking. It is not unusual to see old signs of blazes along trails. Obviously, this practice stopped a long time ago. Could maybe these were the best intentions gone horribly awry?
"This area is always so tough for everyone, maybe I'll save them some work and blaze the path for them."
Now, after reading his reactions I don't believe this to be the case. But, we all have to get educated at some point, and maybe this was theirs?
Just curious.
But something said a few posts back got me thinking. It is not unusual to see old signs of blazes along trails. Obviously, this practice stopped a long time ago. Could maybe these were the best intentions gone horribly awry?
"This area is always so tough for everyone, maybe I'll save them some work and blaze the path for them."
Now, after reading his reactions I don't believe this to be the case. But, we all have to get educated at some point, and maybe this was theirs?
Just curious.
Neil
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My take on this felony is that the perps were out there with a nice sharp machete and all those trees were just sitting there. I bet they were itching to do some damage but felt the need (ie. understood in a vague, undefined way it was wrong) to justify/excuse thier actions. As a result they did the world a big, fat "favour" by blazing the trail to Couchie. These young fools and their money are soon to part. Not that the heavy fines coming their way will undo the damage.
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