Distance Between Cairns in Alpine Zones

[Puck]

I heard that a group was making a descent above treeline on Glenn Boulder Trail. The area had set in with fog and they lost visibility. It took them an hour or so to move from the boulder to the section of trail that has the drop into the trees. They claim that the cairns frequency and distance were insufficient.

This area has very little in the way of loose rock to build a cairn. Rocks would need to be brough in from a distance. It ismade up of large slabs of rock.

Question is...what is a good distance for cairns. Should the practice of blazing be brought back in some areas. Should the descent be that difficult?

 

[David Metsky]

Question is...what is a good distance for cairns. Should the practice of blazing be brought back in some areas. Should the descent be that difficult?

You can't make the trail safe in all conceivable conditions, it's simply not possible. The idea is that one cairn will be visible from the previous one in all but the worst possible conditions. In those cases, groups need to know techniques to safely travel above treeline. That may include moving away from the current cairn until it's barely visible, then sending another person out farther but within sight of the first person, until the next cairn in spotted. You may have to use a rope. It's slow laborious work but a well prepared hiker should keep an eye on the weather and make appropriate choices.

Blazing above treeline is only moderately useful. If visibility is that low, blazes are hard to pick out. Once the freezing rain and rime ice starts forming blazes become almost impossible to spot. They also don't last long in that harsh environment and need to be repainted frequently.

Unless you want to make all trails above treeline into sidewalks some degree of difficultly is inevitable. Depending on the terrain and amount of use the trails get, I would imagine 50'-100' would be the right range.

As an aside, an hour to cover that distance isn't a big deal IMO.

 

[Mike P.]

Don't know much about the facts, date, time, etc of this descent but watching the weather before it comes in would apparently helped.

No one wants lighted sidewalks & blinking arrows.

Sounds like they learned a lesson & they'll be better prepared to deal with the conditions next time.

IMO, I learn more when something like this happens to me or something caused me to alter my plans. (still learning)

 

[Dave Bear]

Not that you want to get off trail in the alpine zone by making a beeline, but I have taken a bearing before when conditions were starting to get crappy inorder to have my best clue to where I was going. I have also taken a bearing on where I was going when things were getting questionable so I would have a reverse bearing to use and that was on Adams where there are some pretty decent cairns!

 

[Puck]

This group was up there this summer from what I could acsertain. This trail seems to get alot of picnic traffic. People see that the boulder is only 1.6 miles from the road...how easy can it get. I think alot go up there without maps, compass, gps. If they get caught in worsening conditions it could spell trouble...One does not feel the wind until you climb up the ledge and get above the trees.

I have reported the comments. so lets see what happens. Thanks for the comments and insight.

 

[Raven]

You may have to use a rope. It's slow laborious work but a well prepared hiker should keep an eye on the weather and make appropriate choices.

Similarly, fishing line can be used. It's tough if you get a good one, almost has no weight, and you can carry hundreds of feet of it without notice. With it, a solo hiker can tie off to a cairn and do a 360 to find other cairns within the area. You're always connected to that first cairn (take time to make sure it's secure obviously). The distance to the next cairn will not be farther than your length of line.

 

[TEO]

Except you have to go back to retrieve all of the fishing line that you've strung up, so then you're back at the beginning still in the fog, no?

Or, if someone else happens to be hiking the same trail, they trip and fall because they didn't see the line.

I think that breadcrumbs would be a better idea.

 

[peakbagger]

Surveyors use a device that hangs from their belt that reels out a red string to measure timber cruises. When I and a friend were doing the 100 highest many years ago, we apparently were following a person who was also doing the 100 highest as we encountered a darn red string along the ridge lines on several mountains. We knew it was a someone bagging summits as the string tended to go from one high spot to another on flatter summits.

 

[MichaelJ]

Except you have to go back to retrieve all of the fishing line that you've strung up, so then you're back at the beginning still in the fog, no?

Tie off the first string to the starting cairn. Find the next cairn. Tie off a second string to it. Follow the first string back and untie it. Follow the second string back to the next cairn. Now that is the "first string" and repeat.

It's lengthy and slow, but it works. In principle, anyway.

 

[TEO]

Good god, that sounds like a painfully slow process. Wouldn't you be better off just calling 911?

 

[mookie]

Good god, that sounds like a painfully slow process. Wouldn't you be better off just calling 911?

or just turn around. hardly seems worth it....

 

[DougPaul]

Tie off the first string to the starting cairn. Find the next cairn. Tie off a second string to it. Follow the first string back and untie it. Follow the second string back to the next cairn. Now that is the "first string" and repeat.

It is even simpler to use one string:
1) tie the beginning end to the starting cairn.
2) find next cairn and tie string to it
3) follow string back to starting cairn and untie
4) follow string back to next cairn while reeling the string in.
5) repeat as necessary...

All these string methods are simple in theory, but in practice the string can tangle on itself (2 are worse than one...), tangle on rocks, and blow around. Larger diameter cord (or rope) will be easier to handle and see, but is, of course, heavier to carry.

Doug

 

[Barkingcat]

Good god, that sounds like a painfully slow process. Wouldn't you be better off just calling 911?

Yes -- or using Reese's pieces.

 

[Mike P.]

The process sounds more daunting then the weather

 

[RoySwkr]

Question is...what is a good distance for cairns. Should the practice of blazing be brought back in some areas. Should the descent be that difficult?

Nowadays appearances often trump safety (see Pemi bridge :-( )

It used to be that the standard for the Long Trail was one blaze visible from another, now they are to be farther apart as you are supposed to just follow the footway (in summer, anyway . Similarly, the powers that be have actually downsized or removed many cairns. Guy Waterman was aghast at the thought of paint blazes although they are far less permanent than cairns or stone walls. The top rock used to be painted yellow on Gulfside and Crawford Path but I'm not sure it's still being done.

 

[Raven]

or just turn around. hardly seems worth it....

Pretty sure the group was already on the way down when they lost visibility.

Based on the limited details, it also doesn't sound like they were in a situation worthy of a 911 call as they still had options to extricate themselves and were mobile. As mentioned, an hour to move through that section is not extreme in low visibilty by any means.

 

[Creag Nan Drochaid]

Cairn spacing

Very interesting, the geometry of rope navigation...
On the West Ridge Trail of Mt Cardigan, we find the 50' spacing works. Where there is not level enough ledge on that granite dome mtn for a cairn, we have lashed painted blaze boards to the stunted spruce at treeline. We also have painted blazes on the ledge; these have to be renewed at 4 YO where blazes down in the woods go to 8 YO.
On the other trails on that summit, which are too steep for cairns, blazes as close as 15' apart are the only markings possible with Level 1 tools. We mark the route in a straight or gently curving line, and leave it to hikers to choose their best footing on either side.
An officially designated trail needs marking that helps the observant hiker stay found, reducing SAR costs. The matter of removing markings in designated wilderness has been discussed several times; my colleagues and I are unanimous that it is a risky and stupid thing to do. More bootleg trails and large SAR efforts infringe in wilderness aesthetics far more than a normally marked trail.

 

[TCD]

What he said.

 

[mookie]

Pretty sure the group was already on the way down when they lost visibility.

Based on the limited details, it also doesn't sound like they were in a situation worthy of a 911 call as they still had options to extricate themselves and were mobile. As mentioned, an hour to move through that section is not extreme in low visibilty by any means.

I was mostly referring to the topic of using fishing line....