Dog bit on South Tripyramid

[grog]

" It really ticks me off when people say what I'm thinking before I get the chance"

"The dog haters will respond that you should've gone Rambo on the dog and his owners, and that no dogs should ever be on trails."

Those are 2 quotes by dvlb, the first one I agree with 100%. I hate dogs and that is why BSP and Monadnock are two of my favorite places to hike.

I also hike about 60 times a year on Mt. Wachusetts and have met about 40 dogs ( with owners ) and have been pleasantly surprised with the courtesy and respect the dog owners have exhibited. Even the unleashed dogs who have come bounding down the trail and try to jump on me are nothing but a minor irritant.

But this dog bit someone and I would definitely consider that an assault. But what to do when on top of a mountain hours away from help? I think what you did Glen was the right thing to do. But for me? If a dog attacks me I would try to grab the back of the dogs neck and just start pounding away. Never try to kick a dog it will just cause you to lose your balance, and if the dog gets your leg you're all done.

If the dog got away I would then confront the owner. An apology would quickly defuse the situation and I would probably end up patting the dog. If those people laughed at my discomfort it would change my hiking game.

First I would tell them I'm going to file an assault charge with the police. If this still didn't bring an apology I would follow them and either get their licence plate number or , if that was their illegal camp, i would report that. I definely would not let them get away with an assault against me. But that's me, I'm probably more wild animal than any dog I encounter (that's why I'm grog).

As long as dog owners treat others with respect, I will fully reciprocate their feelings, just keep your barking and pooping organic machines out of BSP and Monadnock. Thanks.

grog

 

[sjhbos]

"If a dog attacks me I would try to grab the back of the dogs neck and just start pounding away. Never try to kick a dog it will just cause you to lose your balance, and if the dog gets your leg you're all done."

There will frequently be times when we meet dogs on the trail and sometimes they are not leashed. It is unusual for most dogs to show aggressiveness towards a hiker but if this does happen I don't think that this justifies "pounding away" on the animal. Report to authorities as recommended in a previous post.

 

[smitty77]

It's perfectly fair. Talk to any insurance actuary and he'll tell you why in excruciating mathematical detail.

Just to make my stance clear: I agree with their policy. I just hear lots of complaints that "Company XYZ won't insure us because we own a Pit and a Rotti, and they're well trained, and they've never bitten anyone. Why do we get punished because of a few bad ones?" Because it only takes one "oh boy..." to make up for a thousand "atta' boys".

 

[Puck]

apology or not the dog owner is liable for damages caused by thier negligence. Although skin was not broken, a situation that would demand that the owner supply immunization records for the dog, there could be damages to muscle and cnnective tissue that may manifest at a latter date. You should have asked for the owners name address and phone number, then file a report. (same reason one files a Worker's Comp First Report of Injury form for a paper cut.) I am not saying that you will bring a law suit, just have your bases covered if you need to.

I certainly hope you do not have problems with the bite.

 

[dvbl]

...At about post 27, someone will go over the line and the thread will get locked, just like every other contentious dog thread.

Oh well, I was off by a little....looks like post 21 is gonna cause the end of this thread.

 

[Motabobo]

At about post 27, someone will go over the line and the thread will get locked, just like every other contentious dog thread.

I would have gone Rambo period.
Damn that's #26

 

[giggy]

Oh well, I was off by a little....looks like post 21 is gonna cause the end of this thread.

nah - its a legit post and has points - nothing illegal about hating dogs. I love dogs but hate the beast from hell - cats (I am allergic) sorry cat lovers...

 

[griffin]

Although skin was not broken, a situation that would demand that the owner supply immunization records for the dog, there could be damages to muscle and cnnective tissue that may manifest at a latter date.

True, and yes the owners would be responsible for such, but unless the dog breaks the skin the immunization records are irrelevant.

As for "grabbing and pounding on a dog" - it may feel gratifying (or the thought of doing so may be gratifying) but as I said earlier, engaging the dog in that manner will likely only result in you getting bitten again. And worse.

And that's not counting how the owners might react (and I'm not arguing about what is an isn't justified, just what is and isn't likely to happen).

Just a thought.

 

[dug]

This honestly sounds less like a dog problem, and more like a hiker responsibility problem. How would they have reacted if their kids were tossing rocks down the trail or over a cliff and hit you? I bet, the same.

Lack of heeding the unwritten hiker code is the problem here. Not controlling a member of their party (the dog), camping in irresponsible places, lack of concern for their fellow hiker, etc.

It's unfortunate that it was exhibited in the manner of a dog bite, but it wasn't the only transgression that occurred.

As a defender of dogs on the trail, even I would have to say I probably would have pressed the issue with them and threatened to contact the authorities. I'm not big on ever striking a dog.

 

[TCD]

I agree with dug. That was my point in my earlier post. Most "dog problems" are actually people problems. Dogs, for the most part, are trying to do what they think their owners want. I love dogs, even though I don't currently have one. In all my playing with dogs, I've only rarely encountered an actual "problem dog."

/ o/t:

Now if we started a cat thread, that would be fun. (There was a thread a couple years ago about cats that hike with their owners.) I have cats right now, because I can leave them home for a couple days alone for a spur of the moment camping or climbing trip over rough terrain. A dog would have trouble on many of my trips, and I would have to get a sitter if I were to leave the dog home.

I wonder how my cats would do on the Trap Dike? (Probably better then I do...)

end of o/t /

TCD

 

[Dugan]

there could be damages to muscle and connective tissue that may manifest at a latter date.

The long canine teeth can cause soft tissue damage without breaking the skin.

As for "grabbing and pounding on a dog" - it may feel gratifying (or the thought of doing so may be gratifying) but as I said earlier, engaging the dog in that manner will likely only result in you getting bitten again. And worse.

Agreed. It doesn't matter why the dog bit in the first place, but a situation such as this will only serve to further aggravate the circumstances. You may get hurt more badly. It may give the owners grounds to claim that you must've provoked the bite. It may cause the owners to be less cooperative should you ask for their informatin. Mostly I disagree with this because violence begets violence - why make a bad situation worse?


How to tell mouthing vs biting? It can be difficult. Dugan-3.8 legs was very mouthy when I first got him. Given his size and his breed, I immediately (and still) discouraged mouthing behaviors. I've read that if dogs are used to using their mouths on people, they are less shy of biting. My rule of thumb is that if it hurts, it's biting.

Identification: ask owners for name, address, telephone. If you can, get the dog's information from its rabies and license tags. If the bite breaks the skin, absolutely get a copy of the rabies certificate. If you can't, I'd advise seeking medical attention immediately. Rabies is 100% fatal in humans.

Absolutely - the bite should be reported. This is especially important if the dog has a history of biting, which you may not know. I'd report it to the police in the area where the bite happened, as well as to the police and ACO in the dog's town.

I can't remember the name, but I once read somewhere that what's amazing isn't that a dog bites, but that they do not bite more.

 

[una_dogger]

I agree with Kevin, and I will add that their isn't a single dog on the planet that will not bite under certain circumstances.

First and foremost, YES - the owners should have been bending over backward to ask you if you were OK, did you need anything? Can they give you thier number in case you decide to seek medical attention??? (If it sounds like I've been there, I have -- not with Terra). Even the slightest nip or mouthiness or even barrelling into someone with strong physical force ("He just wants to say "hello!" He's really friendly!!".. weve all heard that one) deserves a responsible intervention from the owner, its up to ALL dog owners to project this positive and responsible attitude or we will all lose the right to have our dogs on the trails with us -- public trails are for humans, and humans first. Off the soapbox........

How to prevent this?
Dog owners need to take the time to learn to understand how thier dog reacts to all sorts of stimuli; and have a relationship firmly in place with thier dog so that they can redirect ("control" is a popular word for this) thier dog's behavior in an instant, before a situation escalates. Being in the woods can be particularly stimulating for most dogs, and some dogs get pretty ramped up. Dogs don't need to be out of control to enjoy the freedom that comes from being in the woods. And they are less likely to listen to thier owners if they are in that type of mental state.

On leash or off --- I belive its the connection that leads, not the lead that connects. (not saying I reject leash laws)

Finally, had those owners done the right thing and stepped up to thier responsibility, intervention by law enforcement would have probably not been necessary. You will do what you feel is right. However, its my feeling that when these incidents occur, there is little the authorities can do -- and enough complaints like this and they must take a broad brush approach, meaning "No dogs allowed".

 

[Grumpy]

Oh, Man!

This is another of these “should I confront?” situations. And to be honest, I don’t know the pat answer here.

I do think it is a good idea to request the dog owner / handler’s name, address and phone number. Make it an exchange, though – provide your own info, to the other guy. Empathy can be a powerful thing. Courtesy on your part, and the willingness to approach the incident as a shared problem for which all parties want a proper solution or resolution, moves things toward a collaborative rather than adversarial situation.

You have to assume the dog’s human is going to be defensive if you have to approach him (or her) in an incident like this. Try to watch your own body language, voice, vocabulary – your own demeanor – as you approach to disarm a sense of threat the other guy may feel. Do likewise if (s)he approaches you. Start your contact with a presumption of good will, regardless of what has transpired during the incident itself.

If you run into resistance – not just reluctance but outright obstinate resistance and even hostility -- there really is little you can or should do to force the issue. What makes this situation very difficult is the isolation from any effective intervention by a police authority as you try to deal with a tense stranger in a tense situation. I suppose the best move then is to disengage and get on down the trail. After you have thus fully disengaged, jot down some appropriate notes as to descriptions of time, place, events, dog and people. Reporting the incident to proper authorities at the earliest possible moment is advised. If only a few vehicles are parked at the trailhead, jotting down plate numbers and brief descriptions might prove useful.

The advice about rabies precautions is very important. My sister got pinked by a bat one evening while vacationing in the Adirondacks a few years ago, and had to go through the rabies treatment. She said it was not especially unpleasant (as it once was reputed to be) – but did note that dosages for the injections are based on body weight, which she found to be “a little embarrassing.”

G.

 

[DougPaul]

One thing you can do to help with issues of IDing the dog and owner is to take pictures of both. Probably best not to be too obvious. (Remember, with modern automated cameras, you don't have to sight them in any obvious way--just point and press the button.)

Doug

 

[Dugan]

its up to ALL dog owners to project this positive and responsible attitude or we will all lose the right to have our dogs on the trails with us

This can't be said often enough, or stressed strongly enough. Take as evidence the number of dog show sites lost due to irreponsible owners and handlers.

On leash or off --- I belive its the connection that leads, not the lead that connects.

And if you do not have this kind of connection, the dog should be under physical restraint, and that restraint should be used properly (i.e. not running out on a flexi-lead).

I will fully admit that Dugan 3.8-legs will probably never have this kind of focus - I've never had an LGD that did. Therefore, he almost always walks on lead.

 

[Grumpy]

Caution!

If you have been confronted with real resistance or hostility, do not whip out the camera and start shooting pictures of your antagionist and his/her party. Do not even turn around and do it while disengaging and withdrawing from the scene. Believe me, the camera will be viewed by a hostile party as a "weapon" of sorts, and its appearance will only escalate things.

Take it from somebody who often is assigned -- as part of his job -- to take photos of people who for various reasons good and bad do not want anyone taking their pictures.

G.

 

[Peakbagr]

Quote from the moderator who commented early in the thread:
"This board is not the place to rant about dogs and/or bad dog owners. Please keep the discussion focused on suggested courses of action."

 

[Kevin Judy and Emma]

Dog Bite

We are new here. My wife Judy and I are saddened to hear of this happening in the mountains. We always hike with our small dog, Emma. She is very unintimidating, but we try to control her at all times. Especially on mountain tops where people tend to have food out. I would be annoyed, too, if someones dog was nosing in my food. My wife, on the other hand would feed it and hug it. Emma is seldom on a leash except at the trailhead. She usually responds well to voice command, but not always.

One problem we have with her is if she can see a long way down the trail, like on the Wilderness Trail, she mistakes 2 hikers for a 4 legged creature. Maybe a moose? So she may bark a little until she figures out it's people. Sometimes she is very protective if there is food out. I wonder if this was the case in the incident that began this thread?

At any rate, the reaction of (or non-reaction) of the owner is unbelieveable in my mind. I agree that this person should have bent over backwards to apologize and make sure the person who was bit was OK. I would definitely report them to the forest service, and if my dog bit someone, I would report it myself.

The sad truth is, some dogs are not good trail companions. This is usually their upbringing, and is not always the owners fault. There are a lot of rescued animals out there who were abused before the current owners received them. I also beleive that many dogs are in a state of hyper attention when in the woods. Many are not used to the surrounding smells and sounds. We took Emma in as a stray at about 10-12 weeks old. We hiked in the woods and climbed mountains with her since taking her in. She is completely at home in the woods and mountains, and yet we still have the problems I described earlier.

Hiking on the Garfield Ridge Trail on the Fourth of July we met up with a guy and his dog. He immediately jumped up and grabbed the dog to restrain it. It was a large shepard mix which was snapping and snarling like a junkyard dog. I'm not sure if it was reacting to us or to our dog or both. This dog had a collar and a harness to restrain it. While holding the dog by the harness, the owner tried to clip a leash on the collar. He had to jerk his hand back several times to not be bitten by his own dog! I don't know any background, nor did I stick around to ask any questions, but why would anyone bring an animal like this out on the trail?

The illegal campsite is another issue altogether, but it illustrates why people who do not obey the rules, whether it be dogs or campsites, can ruin it for us all. Sooner or later, if people keep breaking the rules, the rules have to change and those who follow the rules will suffer from tighter restrictions. These people who don't know, or can't folow the rules due to some personality defect should always be reported, in my opinion.

KDT

 

[Trudy]

This is a really good post by someone who has seen the issue from both sides. Thanks, Kevin.

 

[RoySwkr]

What I would have probably done at the time is exactly what you did - nothing. I would have been too shocked. Later I probably would have reported this to law enforcement not expecting anything unless a pattern emerged.

In my nastier moments I visualize pulling out a cell phone or something that looks like one and talking into it, "I've been bit by a rabid dog, send a helicopter to these coordinates, and oh yes, an officer to arrest the dog owner to make sure he pays for the helicopter...okay, I will go to the landing zone but he should wait here?" and then to the dog owner "They say you should wait here until the officer arrives, if you leave that is resisting arrest and you can go to jail for it."