Dog Etiquette on the trails

[bobmak]

I deleted my post pertaining to the dog shooting as well... Peakbagr is right, this is getting off topic. Self censorship is the best!

 

[Peakbagr]

Thanks for the support here and in emails & private msgs. While this is the unpleasant part of the moderator's job, an understanding attitude by everyone makes it better.

Thank you,
Peakbagr

 

[AlpineSummit]

Ditto.

Mine is history too.

 

[dug]

I have apologized directly to Peakbagr, and feel I owe one to the folks I offended here as well.

It is unfortunate my comments drew the attention away from the story. I didn't read everyone's replies, so if I was bashed I deserved it.

I posted the story because I have heard the threat of "I'll shoot any dog that comes near my children", and when it happened, unfortunately, all I could think of was this BBS.

I don't hate policemen. I don't think all dogs should run free all the time. I do believe you should have the right to let a well-trained dog loose on the trails...as long as the state legislature says so.

I have put myself on posting-probation for a while.....

 

[afka_bob]

To get back OT....

I go hiking to see wildlife. I see dogs (nice dogs) all the time at home. I'm trying to remember the last time I saw any wildlife (fauna, not flora) when somebody had their dog along, and I can't.

 

[Dugan]

Seeing wildlife

I find it goes both ways.

I'm sure there is wildlife I don't see, though the forest doesn't seem quieter when I go through with a dog than without. On the other hand, there is wildlife that I do see because my dog pointed it out. About a week ago I heard a strange bell-like noise out in the woods. Dugan was alerting to it also. We both tried to find the noise, Dugan found it first. He was alerting to a point very high up in a white pine. It turned out to be a raven. Not only did he find it faster than me, I'm not sure I would have seen it if he hadn't pointed it out because the raven was mostly hidden.

He and my previous dogs have done similar things many times. Thanks to them I've seen many things I wouldn't otherwise have seen, including once even a bobcat and a bear (no, they weren't together!). They're also very good at pointing out tracks even though I haven't trained in tracking. Dugan recently led me to a coyote den near home, and one of the departed excelled at finding remains. I don't know how many dogs are like this. It may be due to their breed which tends to be sensitive to changes in their surroundings.

 

[Grumpy]

Dogs & Wildlife

I go hiking to see wildlife. I see dogs (nice dogs) all the time at home. I'm trying to remember the last time I saw any wildlife (fauna, not flora) when somebody had their dog along, and I can't.

My own experience in hiking with a dog is that I probably see as much wildlife with the dog as without. On numerous occasions we (dog and I) have spent many minutes within 15-20 yards of whitetail deer, eye to eye, with the dog sitting quietly by me but very alert. The deer encounters of this sort most often have been broken off by the approach of other (dogless) hikers. Same kind of thing has happened with birds, including ruffed grouse. My dog is one of the hunting breeds, too (springer spaniel). The dog often senses wildlife presence and alerts me to things I'd probably otherwise miss.

So it seems to me that the hiking dog = no wildlife equation is largely a myth.

As for dog etiquette on the trail, three words suffice: Use a leash.

G.

 

[evgeneia]

First Hike

Prepared with all this great advice on etiquette, Luce and I hit the trail for her first hike today. We headed over to Crawford Notch for a quick jaunt up Willard. All went very well--she stayed leashed the whole time, and thoroughly enjoyed her afternoon out.
Seeing groups of people with snow shoes for the first time was off putting for her, but otherwise it was all good. My southern puppy is loving all this northern snow (she just moved up a few weeks ago).

Thanks for all the great tips and different perspectives!! Say HI if you see a fuzzy and super friendly black puppy on the trails in NH

 

[afka_bob]

Re: Dogs & Wildlife

...So it seems to me that the hiking dog = no wildlife equation is largely a myth.

Or my bad memory, or just plain the truth in many instances.

As for dog etiquette on the trail, three words suffice: Use a leash.

Again, using my faulty memory, the overwhelming majority of dogs I have encountered on the trail were not leashed. Thanks for using a leash.

 

[Periwinkle]

Lots of good advice here already, just wanted to add my .02:

Hiking is hard work for a puppy. Keep a close eye on her physical condition, including the following two days post-hike. You don't mention what breed Luce, but this is particularly important with large breeds. You want to work her up to this and make sure that she's up to the task.

Invest in some booties for her. They are essential to have on hand if she cuts a pad or tears a nail. Been there, done that. The usual items in your first aid kit won't hold out long enough to get her back to the car with a bleeding paw. At the least, a bandana and duct tape will help, but booties would be better. It really helps if she's been used to wearing them at home first. Otherwise, she'll try to rip it off on the trail.

Give some thought to pack training Luce. Life will be simpler for you if she carries some of her own gear. I only wish I could take my own advice on this -- started too late here. Can I interest you in a very slightly used Mountain Smith dog pack at a very good price?

And if we see you on the trail, my overly friendly (but well behaved) black dog and I will definitely say hello.

 

[peakbagger]

As a non dog owner, one thing that has not been covered is how best to approach an upcoming dog along the trail. I happen to like socialable dogs, so I usually say talk to the dog in friendly tones until the owner appears. Most dogs head back down the trail to their owners, some come and say hello and some go into an aggressive posture. The talking is not just for the dog, it usually alerts the owners that there is someone on the trail ahead and that they dont mind dogs.

I dont mind being proactive so this works for me, unfortunately for those who are afraid of dogs, this wouldnt work very well, so I think the best training is probably for fido to head back to the owner, until the owner catches up.

On a somewhat different note, borderline aggressive dogs, tend to respect hiking poles. I have noticed over the years that when I am using my poles an aggressive dog will tend to stay back., they will still bark and go into an aggressive posture, but they dont tend to move in for the nip.

 

[Buddur]

Re: Dogs & Wildlife

So it seems to me that the hiking dog = no wildlife equation is largely a myth.
G.

I wholeheartedly concur with this statement, and I can assure that I see much more fauna than my dog does. It's amazing to me how much wildlife my dog misses, maybe because he's much closer to the ground and can't see great distances. But I see deer all the time, but my dog very rarely does...until he picks up their scent, but by that time they're long gone.

 

[bobmak]

Regarding dogs & wildlife...

They are a lot like people. Some dogs are noisy and non-observant of wildlife, just are some people. I used to have a huskie/shep mix named Jezzabel that had a thing for treeing squirrels. She didn't care much for birds or rabbits, just squirrels. One day as I walking back from 13 Falls in the Pemi Jezzabel sighted a squirrel, started barking excitedly and tree'd it near the flooded beaver pond. She was completely oblivious to the cow moose that was standing in the trail about 75 feet away from her. The moose seemed pretty uninterested in Jezz as well and just sauntered off on her way.

 

[Peakbagr]

I find the comments about seeing more wildlife when hiking with dogs interesting.
On one hand, most birds, unless ground nesting or having young birds on the ground, would be unconcerned with seeing a dog accompanying people.
Deer, on the other hand, are a bundle of walking-senses. Their hearing, smell and sight(in that order) is excellent. Since they are genetically fearful of 4 legged predators, my experience is that unless your dog were almost motionless and downwind, you'll see fewer ungulates when you are out with your pooch.

 

[Turnbill]

While it's true I haven't seen many (any?) deer with my dog, I haven't seen that many without her either. Together, we've seen about half-a-dozen moose, weasels, a pine martin, lots of spruce and ruffed grouse, willow ptarmigan, porcupine and caribou (in Newfoundland). Nell is a big wimp, so I often know something is near when she starts trying to walk between my legs with that "lions and tigers and bears, oh my!" look on her face.

Peakbagger, as far as what to do when you meet a dog, I think your talking to the dog is the right thing to do. If the dog appears aggressive, a trick I've used is to tell the dog to "Sit!". Most dog owners have trained their dogs to do this and most dogs will respond to this command if given in an authorative voice. When the owners do show up, you should inform them they ought to be more careful about letting their dog get ahead of them.

 

[Grumpy]

Miscellaneous Points

. . . Deer, on the other hand, are a bundle of walking-senses. Their hearing, smell and sight(in that order) is excellent. Since they are genetically fearful of 4 legged predators, my experience is that unless your dog were almost motionless and downwind, you'll see fewer ungulates when you are out with your pooch.

My experience is that with or without a dog you will see fewer deer when you are upwind of them and moving. My dog's presence, in my experience, doesn't seem to make a whole lot of difference in this case. Being a little contrary, here, but also truthful.

Other stuff:

I agree that speaking to a dog as it approaches is a good idea on many counts. My way is to use a firm and assured but not threatening or especially loud tone of voice. If a dog continues to advance in a hostile or aggressive fashion I stop, stare right at it and become quite commanding and assertive in telling it to stop and go away: "GIT!" This seldom fails. If it doesn't, I steel myself for a physical confrontation and won't hesitate to deliver a solid punch to the dog's head if it grabs at me. Haven't ever been bitten by a "strange" dog using this approach (haven't had to actually punch a pooch in more than 30 years, either, thankfully) -- last time I got tagged was in the leg, from behind and by surprise, while I was having a quiet conversation with the dog's owner.

And for you dog owners who say "my dog doesn't bite," here's a little true story. One of the saddest moments of my dog-owning life came 25 years ago when our beloved and loving pet of many years and I had a small disciplinary confrontation. I never physically touched that dog to discipline him and he always had responded to voice. But not this time. Without warning, he latched onto my typing finger (right, index) and dragged me around the kitchen for what seemed like an eternity, tearing up the skin and spraining my finger. (Put me out of the curmudgeon business for a little while!) Point is, they ALL will bite, and don't ever believe anything else.

Use a leash.

G.

 

[Dugan]

Etiquette & orthopedics

Agreed, Grumpy. Regardless of a dog's breed (pure or mixed) ALL dogs have evolved as predators. Virtually all will hunt and kill. Virtually all have a bite threshhold. It's just a matter of the proper stimuli - and I don't mean training - to reach that threshhold. The exception isn't that so few dogs bite, it's that so many don't.

evgeneia & Luce:
Please be careful when hiking with a pup. Dogs, like humans, have growth plates on the ends of their long bones. If they are over-stressed physically before the plates are closed, which happens at or near maturity, serious and permanent orthopedic damage may result. Maturity differs by size. A good vet, especially one who specializes in canine sports medicine, may be a source of information & advice.

Depending on size or breed, you may also have some concerns about hip/elbow dysplasia, hocks, and knees.

It's also important for dogs to try to avoid "weekend warrior" syndrome. A light, slow walk a few hours after a hike and again the next morning will help to keep them limber. It's also good if you can get them to stretch a little - doing playbows or something, and watch them gaiting for signs of favoring anything anywhere.

My dog is a giant breed, typically considered physically mature at 2, he's now 20 months or so, by our best guess. I limit him to 5-7 miles, depending on terrain. On easier terrain, I'll let him go further, for a 4k in the Whites I stick to the lower end of the scale. It's also good to limit high impact, which eliminates steep down hills. I do not bring him running with me yet, because it could overstress his immature frame. For giants under a year, I limit them to no more than 2-3 miles a day over only easy terrain. At 2, we'll start some longer hikes 10-15 miles depending on terrain, but I won't start him running with me until he's at least 3. On non-hiking days we walk 4-7 miles a day, broken up into 2-3 walks to keep both of us in condition. Most of our walks are in the woods which helps to limit impact too. He won't carry packs until he's at least 4. I know I sound maybe a little too careful, but giant dogs have a short enough hiking career as it is, I'd like to keep his as long as we can, and to keep his joints healthy into old age.

I'm glad Luce enjoyed her first day out!

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Dugan -

Is your dog a Great Pyrenes?

Kevin

 

[Mark]

Re: Miscellaneous Points

My way is to use a firm and assured but not threatening or especially loud tone of voice. If a dog continues to advance in a hostile or aggressive fashion I stop, stare right at it and become quite commanding and assertive in telling it to stop and go away: "GIT!" This seldom fails.

Grumpy,

I thought that staring at a dog and acting assertive could cause a dog to react more aggressively. I was told that avoiding direct eye contact and acting submissive is safer around unknown dogs. (Truthfully, I’ve never really liked this advice because it makes it harder for me to keep an eye on potentially dangerous dogs.)

I’m not an expert, so I will defer to the more knowledgeable posters here.

 

[Dugan]

Greeting an unknown dog

Kevin: He's a Kuvasz. They're very similar to the Great Pyrenees, having been bred for the same thing. I've had a few Pyrs over the years too.

Unfortunately, there are no generally applicable rules when it comes to dealing with unknown dogs. Making yourself look dominant (eye contact, looking bigger) may set off a dominant dog, but submissiveness or a turned back might set off a fear-aggressive dog.

Some dog body language to watch for are a stiff-legged advance, hackles up (that's the fur on top of the neck - hackles up can raise fur all the way down the spine if the dog is really upset), muzzle wrinkling, corners of the mouth pulled forward, a low/deep growl. A dominant dog is more likely to go for the stiff legged advance in a "tall" stance, ears could be forward or back. A fear aggressive dog would probably approach in a crouch similar to the classic Border Collie herding crouch, ears back, and would tend to advance if your back is partly or completely turned. Either way, the dog will also look tense. A very submissive dog is likely to approach in much the same way as a fearful one, but is usually grinning with the corners of the mouth drawn back and doing a sort of whole body wiggle. A wagging tail is not always a good indicator. Tails can wag if the dog is feeling conflicted, interested, dominant, excited, etc. If an owner isn't around, I tend to assume the worst but hope for the best. If the dog looks at all iffy to me, I'll treat is as aggressive, even if the owner is saying otherwise.

For an aggressive dog, I've used Grumpy's approach successfully for years. If you have to pass the dog, keep watching them. Some dogs are more inclined to attack after your back is turned. Maybe I've been lucky and haven't yet run into a truly nasty dog.

With most dogs that are not in an aggressive stance one recommended approach is to squat or kneel to get to their level, don't make eye contact, hold out a hand at arm length, palm down, loose fist. Allow the dog to approach, try not to grab or be excited or loud. If this goes well, turn your hand palm up, and finally see if the dog will allow a chin scratch/collar grab. For an especially shy dog, you may need to turn your back completely, which I'd be reluctant to do with an unknown dog.

An air horn can or police whistle might help to break the approach of a possibly aggressive dog, as might throwing the contents of your water bottle into the face. The object is to startle them out of their current path of action. Mace, pepper spray, or Halt! might make them more aggressive since it causes pain. As Grumpy said, talking in a calm/deep/commanding voice, or brandishing a stick/pole may work. I agree with Turnbill that throwing in a common command like "sit" or "down" may help. If you've decided to approach an injured dog, be especially careful. Even your own may lash out and bite when hurt.

(the following is not a paid advertisement)
If you want to learn more about interacting with dogs, one place to start is a local animal shelter if you have a good one in your area. They usually welcome volunteers to walk dogs, and will dispense free advice about interactions to help keep you safe with their animals.

Thanks to everyone for keeping this thread reasonable and on topic!