Drawing the line between hiker and climber

[bikehikeskifish]

I am definitely a hiker, definitely not a climber, but I am not stuck like glue to the easiest route up a mountain by any stretch. I enjoy some variety. I do routinely say "I climbed Mount Washington this weekend". None of my co-workers or friends or family has ever asked about technical gear.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

We could bandy it back and forth all day but I still say exposure is the #1 difference between hiking and climbing. Your Grand Canyon example is interesting but you really have to go out of your way to fall off a wide trail so that's not exposed in the true sense of the word.

I would describe the edge of GC to be exposed no matter how you got there. How you got there determines whether you hiked or climbed.

IMO, exposure does not distinguish between hiking and climbing. An easy trail that has a big drop-off on one or both sides is hiking with exposure, but not climbing. The two factors are, however, correlated--a high percentage of climbs are exposed while far lower percentage of hiking trails are exposed.

Note that climbing moves don't have to be exposed--moving up a few feet may require a difficult climbing move or two but if there is a nice big ledge below, one can just jump down if one fails to complete the move. (Bouldering is the sport of climbing short routes close enough to the ground that one can jump off at any point. Thus bouldering could be thought of as climbing without exposure...)

Doug

 

[Mike P.]

Yes, unless you have to use your hands or require a belay...

Doug

After hiking all weekend, sometimes!

 

[Mike P.]

Just to add more terms, I'd say in the winter, generally on many of the 4K peaks, you're mountaineering. (Waumbek may be a winter hike, some others too)

Hiking in summer, mountaineering in winter. (Plenty of accidents & injuries caused by crampons & the single walking axe. Axe & crampons are typically though of as tecnical gear. Unless you're in one of the ravines, on a cliff or the trap dike in the winter, you're not climbing.

And where do the Via Ferrata's fall in? From wikipedia:

A via ferrata (Italian for "iron road", plural vie ferrate or in English via ferratas) is a protected climbing route found in the Alps....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata

 

[skiguy]

And where do the Via Ferrata's fall in? From wikipedia:

A via ferrata (Italian for "iron road", plural vie ferrate or in English via ferratas) is a protected climbing route found in the Alps....

I think I'd rather be Climbing than Hiking on this one!

 

[hikerbrian]

though you can start to feel exposed on boulders too.. http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/evilution-direct-v11

Jee. Zus.

 

[DougPaul]

Just to add more terms, I'd say in the winter, generally on many of the 4K peaks, you're mountaineering. (Waumbek may be a winter hike, some others too)

Hiking in summer, mountaineering in winter. (Plenty of accidents & injuries caused by crampons & the single walking axe. Axe & crampons are typically though of as tecnical gear. Unless you're in one of the ravines, on a cliff or the trap dike in the winter, you're not climbing.

Careful--the term mountaineering might deserve a thread of its own...

And where do the Via Ferrata's fall in? From wikipedia:

A via ferrata (Italian for "iron road", plural vie ferrate or in English via ferratas) is a protected climbing route found in the Alps....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_ferrata

Fixed aid climbing.

(Aids can reduce the difficulty and required skill levels to those of hiking...).
Fixed=left in place between climbing parties.

See also Precipice Trail, Acadia NP.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

though you can start to feel exposed on boulders too.. http://www.dpmclimbing.com/climbing-videos/watch/evilution-direct-v11 (definitely not me haha)

Some people have been known to push the limits...

Doug

 

[Stan]

Mountaineering Freedom of the Hills (6th ed) defines the Classes as (this list is rock oriented, it is easily extended to snow and ice):
Class 1) Hiking
Class 2) Simple scrambling, with possible occasional use of the hands.
Class 3) Scrambling; a rope might be carried.
Class 4) Simple climbing, often with exposure. A rope is often used. A fall on Class-4 rock could be fatal.
Class 5) Where rock climbing begins in earnest. Climbing involves the use of a rope, belaying, and protection to protect the leader from a long fall.
Class 6) The rope and equipment is used to support weight and/or needed for forward progress. (added by me)

Using these definitions, I'd say that anything Class 3 or higher is definitely climbing, Class 2 could be hiking or climbing, and Class 1 is hiking (sort of by elimination...)

I agree with this approach to the definition of "hiking" vs. "cimbing" but think that there is a gray area in class 3, where at l at least must use hands but don't rope, but still call it "hiking", e.g King Ravine without snow or ice, the non-technical route in Huntington Ravine, Katahdin's Knife Edge, the descent south from ADK's Saddleback. There are also places where there are ropes and cables but I would still call them "hikes", ADK's Basin and Zion's Angel Landing come to mind.

We hikers and climbers might be the only ones interested in the fine line, however, and I prefer to give journalists their due in spite of their ignorance about the details. It does highlight the fact that people we often rely on for information and analysis are often rather innocent of sufficient knowledge to speak authoritatively, yet that does not stop them from rendering strong opinions or making assumptions. Its a failure that happens with historians, too. The facts can be boring without some opinion and we here are occasionally testimonial to that, especially in responding to accidnets and rescues. IMNSHO there is nothing better than the experiential process to learn by.

Let me say that in my description of hikes with non-hikers I make no distinction between hiking and climbing unless that technicality is the main interest, which it rarely is. Hikers don't need the distinction as they'll already know. I rather think that it is a description of the scenery, wildlife, history related to the trail or places along it and nature of the effort, which I'll often describe as say, "equivalent to hiking from here to Quincy and up the Prudential Building 12 times" that is of more interest.

 

[KV]

With regard to the severity of falling being the barometer...depending on how one LANDS can greatly affect the outcome of the fall. If you land WAY wrong, regardless of where you were or what you were doing prior to the fall and injure, let's say, your brain stem - that provides an entirely different outcome and it doesn't matter what you were doing or what gear you were holding just moments before.

 

[erugs]

I'm a hiker who has been assisted by a climbing guide to the summit of the Grand Teton, as well as Mt. Whitney. On Whitney, I like people to know that I took the climbers route and not the hiking trail, but it may be my grandest summit via ropes, so I'm savoring it.

Another question might be, "Do you carry a backpack? if you are on a day hike in fine weather.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I lived in the Eastern Sierra of CA for seven years, and it's a place which routinely uses the Class 1 thru 5 to describe the difficulty of a hike/climb or combination thereof. Perhaps the hiking/climbing community in CO routinely uses them too, but while I've hiked in CO, I've not lived there. You rarely hear of anyone using Class 1 (hike on established trail, no obstacles, no hands necessary) or Class 2 (hike not on established trails, or "cross-country" in Western slang). In Class 2 you might use 4 points of contact occasionally, but the risk of injury if you slip is minimal. Mostly, the mention of Class X is in the 3 category, and it's usually divided into thirds as in "low Class 3, mid Class 3 and high Class 3". After a dozen mixed hikes with experienced Western hikers, you quickly pick up what is "low" vs. "mid", etc, and decide where your comfort zone is. Class 4 and 5 are rarely used in the hiking community as any outing which contains these elements is considered a technical climb. I know of some who will do Class 4 unprotected, but not many. Most who do for any length of time end up in the general category of "There are old climbers and there are bold climbers, but there are no ..." Very sad, because in those 7 years I've seen several deaths and severe injuries which might have been prevented if they'd used pro.

As a point of comparison - trails in the Whites rarely contain any Class 3 elements as commonly thought of by those who have done lots of hiking in the Sierras. A few spots in Huntington Ravine, and in the Great Gully, have Class 3, but not much elsewhere, IMO.

Rating trips/outings by Class should not be confused with the overall physical effort required. Rather, it has more to do with the likely impact on the body as the result of a fall.

 

[Stash]

For me... What shoes am I wearing?

 

[DougPaul]

Rating trips/outings by Class should not be confused with the overall physical effort required. Rather, it has more to do with the likely impact on the body as the result of a fall.

Disagree.

The Classes are defined more by the techniques used and skills required to climb/hike them. These techniques and skills are in turn driven by the nature of the terrain and risk. The ratings are generally a consensus for a "typical climber/hiker" doing the route--any particular party/individual may use techniques and skills from from other classes depending on his skill and fear levels.

Overall physical effort is more accurately captured in the Grade which is based upon the expected duration of a climb:
* Grade I: one to two hours of climbing
* Grade II: less than half a day
* Grade III: half a day climb
* Grade IV: full day climb
* Grade V: two day climb
* Grade VI: multi-day climb
* Grade VII: a climb lasting a week or longer
(Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(climbing))
Again, an individual or party can climb a route be faster or slower than the Grade would indicate.

If there are special circumstances, they are often added in words or additional notations. For instance, sustained difficulties, exposed, possible deathfall, poor or good protection, etc.

It may be worth noting that these rating systems are consensus based--hard and fast definitions may not exist. Words may also not be able to describe the difficulty well--there is a certain amount of you have to do it to fully understand it.

You rarely hear of anyone using Class 1 (hike on established trail, no obstacles, no hands necessary) or Class 2 (hike not on established trails, or "cross-country" in Western slang).

The Class ratings are generally used by climbers and not by non-climbers. Thus Class 1 and Class 2 are hardly worth noting by those who use the system.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Doug I think Kevin was only taking about Yosemite scale.. Grade 1-5 not Class I-V duration rating..

I agree that he was most likely talking about the YDS (Classes). However, YDS only encodes difficulty, not effort. (Strictly speaking, YDS encodes only the difficulty of the single most difficult move. Pragmatically, the x in the 5.x ratings may be bumped up for a long sustained section.)

Kevin mentioned overall physical effort. I am not aware of any scale in common use in the US which specifically grades the physical effort and the Grade I-VII duration rating is the closest that I am aware of.

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Jake's correct, Doug. Yosemite scale - use Class not Grade. The hiking community in the far Southwest uses Class descriptions regularly, not Grade.

 

[DougPaul]

Jake's correct, Doug. Yosemite scale - use Class not Grade. The hiking community in the far Southwest uses Class descriptions regularly, not Grade.

OK I had a slight misinterpretation of your line about "total physical effort".

However, my statements to the effect that YDS refers to technical difficulty are still correct.

I only mentioned Grade because you brought in total effort and, unlike Class, Grade has some correlation with total effort.

While SW hikers may only use Classes, (technical) climbers sometimes add a Grade rating to a Class rating. Eg: Pinnacle Gully II/III NEI 3+ and The Black Dike IV NEI 5. (The NEI ratings are, in effect, Class 5 ratings for ice.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Also E coast doesn't have much of anything that is more than Grade I (people stretch Cannon routes to take an overnight but that is usually for fun or practice for bigger things).

Grade I is "one or two hours". Many of the routes on Cannon take significantly longer to climb, even without stretching them.

Doug

 

[Dana]

The way I think of it is if the purpose of the ascent of anything less than a mid class 4 or thereabouts is the climb and its techniques itself, you're a climber. If the purpose of the ascent is to get to the top in order to continue on, you're a hiker.

 

[nartreb]

I think if you pack your bag and say "i'm going climbing" you will know if you are going climbing or not I know when I go hiking, my climbing gear in it's entirety stays home.

climbing gear
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v115/Socjake/IMG_0192.jpg

Hey Jake,

What's with the three pairs of shoes? Also, may I suggest bringing a rope?