Greenpoint
New member
Thanks for all the support. Hopefully this idea of spying on people will die down.
drones
- Thread starter Greenpoint
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No offense taken - I really enjoy the spirited conversations we get to have here; however, I don't think my argument ever advocated that outside of one's private residence that one can do anything they want - that feels like a disingenuous representation of my point.
To your point, a public restroom is distinct from being out in public. There is a reasonable expectation of privacy within the confines of public restrooms. It's interesting to think about public restrooms from other perspectives. For example, what if someone were having sex with a prostitute in a public restroom (say a single use bathroom with a lock) - would the police need a warrant to 'search' it, even if there is reasonable suspicion of an illegal activity taking place? I'm not sure of the answer to that, but it's interesting to think about privacy from multiple vantage points. Now, what if someone was peeing outside of a public restroom - say on the ground next to the entrance to it - should they have an expectation of privacy? How far does one have to get away from the bathroom, while remaining in a public space, before a legal expectation of privacy returns?
Don't get me wrong - it's not as though I don't find it creepy that someone might want to take pictures or record a video of someone else going to the bathroom. I'm not commenting on the motivations of the drone operator. My point is about what people's expectations should be. If two people go off trail to have consensual sex, should they have the same expectation of privacy as if they were just peeing? Since anyone can walk anywhere on public lands, so I would argue there should be no expectoration of privacy for either act.
My apologies if my comments come off cold or indifferent - I'm truly sorry to hear that you had an unpleasant experience. Sadly, I doubt the use of drones for nefarious purposes will die down naturally. It'll likely lead to regulations. Here an interesting article on it from this past March: https://www.recode.net/2017/3/15/14934050/federal-privacy-laws-spying-drones-senate-hearing. Spying into private residences appears to be the main concern right now, but any laws passed could have implications for public spaces too.
Creag Nan Drochaid
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I hope that people will realize that it is selfish to fly a whiny drone around other people, especially on a viewpoint others are sharing. Is it all that necessary to have a selfie video from your drone? With that said. they have many uses for people who work on the land, but those uses are becoming subject to reasonable restriction such as altitude, daylight flight, etc.
ExploreTheEast
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I'm a drone operator, even out in the wilderness sometimes (but not the "Wilderness" if you know what I mean). I guess I'm not surprised by the negativity surrounding their use in the Whites. I haven't flown there yet, but I do hope to someday. In fact, I can't think of a place on the East Coast that I'd like to photograph (from the air) more than that area.
Other than the noise, which doesn't mean too much to me as far as a complaint (It's up there with jeans, cellphones, and dogs... I just don't care how other people enjoy nature as long as they're not physically destroying it), I don't mind them. At least a drone battery dies in about 20 minutes! Some people can sing (loudly and badly) for hours. Before I moved east again, I had been buzzed at least a few times out west. I usually just wave to them. Then for weeks afterwards I'd search youtube for "idiot waving to sky" to see if I can find it posted anywhere. No luck yet...
Anyway, getting to the point, anyone that has bothered to register their drone for recreational flight (which was a requirement until just last week when it got shot down by the courts, no pun intended, haha) had to learn some very basic rules that the FAA had set for recreational done pilots. One of those rules is "Don't fly directly over crowds of people," so if you see someone doing that, I'd say it's within your right to complain to them about it. They're literally putting you in danger.
As far as the privacy and all that, I can't really agree with that. The drone cameras (of today, anyway) are likely not what you think they are. I actually had a "privacy" incident pretty recently with some elementary school staff while on a commercial drone shoot. I was taking photos and video of a building, and to get the building in the shot, I had to back up the drone far enough for it to fit in the frame. Right over the elementary school property. I know, the horror. So I'm flying over there when some teachers come over towards the parking lot that I'm flying from, and are all "you can't fly over school property" (I definitely can, it's perfectly legal), and "why are you taking photos of the kids on the playground," which at first I thought was pretty ridiculous. But only a few seconds later, I remembered that they don't know what I can see. It's only from my own personal experience flying/shooting that I know it's ridiculous.
So after I explained the actual law to them regarding what I can and cannot fly over, I asked them to stick around so I could show them the photos that I had just taken. Photos of myself, because I'm standing in the parking lot, so I'm definitely in them. Upon landing, I went through all the shots, pointing out my position in each one. I'll attach one here for all the conspiracy theorists. haha
I post this so you can see what the drone operator will be seeing later on when he's selling your photos to US Weekly for BIG bucks. This is 80 feet. You can see me circled on the left, and you can see the full size 12mp crop on the right. I'm basically Mario from the classic NES Super Mario Bros. You may notice that it's not exactly super spy quality. In the photos from my preferred shooting altitude (350 feet), I'm basically reduced to a few grey/blue pixels. You can't even tell it's a person.
Now, maybe I have no modesty (did I say maybe? I meant probably), but I'd let someone take as many photos of me as they'd like from this distance. This is a very standard semi-professional drone setup (DJI Inspire) as far as the resolution and the focal length (zoom) of the lens, so you can expect most drones to offer similar quality. Drones aren't the NSA. (Yet.) If they're flying at about telephone pole height, you might have something to worry about. But any higher than that, and you're probably overreacting just a little bit when it comes to privacy. Are there drones that have a higher resolution and more zoom? Sure. But usually the people that have invested the $10k to purchase one of those drones are professionals that are well-versed in the law, and I would imagine they use it as a professional would use a tool. No different than a photographer with an 800mm zoom lens. He bought that lens do capture the best ever photo of a marmot's nose hair for National Geographic. He's probably not interested in getting close up of me taking a ****. Can I say **** in here? It's been awhile. Anyway, hopefully this is of some help. Happy hiking/flying!
Other than the noise, which doesn't mean too much to me as far as a complaint (It's up there with jeans, cellphones, and dogs... I just don't care how other people enjoy nature as long as they're not physically destroying it), I don't mind them. At least a drone battery dies in about 20 minutes! Some people can sing (loudly and badly) for hours. Before I moved east again, I had been buzzed at least a few times out west. I usually just wave to them. Then for weeks afterwards I'd search youtube for "idiot waving to sky" to see if I can find it posted anywhere. No luck yet...
Anyway, getting to the point, anyone that has bothered to register their drone for recreational flight (which was a requirement until just last week when it got shot down by the courts, no pun intended, haha) had to learn some very basic rules that the FAA had set for recreational done pilots. One of those rules is "Don't fly directly over crowds of people," so if you see someone doing that, I'd say it's within your right to complain to them about it. They're literally putting you in danger.
As far as the privacy and all that, I can't really agree with that. The drone cameras (of today, anyway) are likely not what you think they are. I actually had a "privacy" incident pretty recently with some elementary school staff while on a commercial drone shoot. I was taking photos and video of a building, and to get the building in the shot, I had to back up the drone far enough for it to fit in the frame. Right over the elementary school property. I know, the horror. So I'm flying over there when some teachers come over towards the parking lot that I'm flying from, and are all "you can't fly over school property" (I definitely can, it's perfectly legal), and "why are you taking photos of the kids on the playground," which at first I thought was pretty ridiculous. But only a few seconds later, I remembered that they don't know what I can see. It's only from my own personal experience flying/shooting that I know it's ridiculous.
So after I explained the actual law to them regarding what I can and cannot fly over, I asked them to stick around so I could show them the photos that I had just taken. Photos of myself, because I'm standing in the parking lot, so I'm definitely in them. Upon landing, I went through all the shots, pointing out my position in each one. I'll attach one here for all the conspiracy theorists. haha
I post this so you can see what the drone operator will be seeing later on when he's selling your photos to US Weekly for BIG bucks. This is 80 feet. You can see me circled on the left, and you can see the full size 12mp crop on the right. I'm basically Mario from the classic NES Super Mario Bros. You may notice that it's not exactly super spy quality. In the photos from my preferred shooting altitude (350 feet), I'm basically reduced to a few grey/blue pixels. You can't even tell it's a person.
Now, maybe I have no modesty (did I say maybe? I meant probably), but I'd let someone take as many photos of me as they'd like from this distance. This is a very standard semi-professional drone setup (DJI Inspire) as far as the resolution and the focal length (zoom) of the lens, so you can expect most drones to offer similar quality. Drones aren't the NSA. (Yet.) If they're flying at about telephone pole height, you might have something to worry about. But any higher than that, and you're probably overreacting just a little bit when it comes to privacy. Are there drones that have a higher resolution and more zoom? Sure. But usually the people that have invested the $10k to purchase one of those drones are professionals that are well-versed in the law, and I would imagine they use it as a professional would use a tool. No different than a photographer with an 800mm zoom lens. He bought that lens do capture the best ever photo of a marmot's nose hair for National Geographic. He's probably not interested in getting close up of me taking a ****. Can I say **** in here? It's been awhile. Anyway, hopefully this is of some help. Happy hiking/flying!
iAmKrzys
Member
I think drones are a perfect example of how technology outran the law. Right now drone use is very lightly regulated but given that for many drone users privacy of other people seems of little concern I expect that regulation will slowly creep in one way or another. I think eventually drones will not only require registration but they will have to broadcast their "digital license plates" over WiFi, so that anyone with a smartphone will be able to identify offending drone ID and report it to appropriate authorities.
FAA appears to "side" with drone owners right now, but I think this is really just driven by desire not to give land owners any rights to the air space over their land.
FAA appears to "side" with drone owners right now, but I think this is really just driven by desire not to give land owners any rights to the air space over their land.
Greenpoint
New member
We were the only hikers on the mountaintop. The drone that hovered over my wife was 30 to 40 feet over her as she went to the bathroom. What do you think the purpose of this view was for the drone operator?
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Very possible that the Drone was spying on your wife and if it was that is just rude on many levels. Although just because the Drone was overhead does not conclusively mean that the Camera on the drone was aimed at your Wife. Many Drones have what is called a "Gimble" which allows the operator to manipulate the angle of the camera. Most operators in my experience in a situation like this would be flying to capture the landscape view which would be much more on a horizontal view rather than what would be directly below them. No one would be able to say for sure what was actually captured without reviewing the footage. I would concur with Explore the East that even if the Camera was pointed down at your wife at 30-40 feet the level of detail would not be anywhere close to revealing.
jrbren
New member
Despite some of the beautiful footage I see from drones on U-Tube, I fully support banning their use in Wilderness area. I disagree that one cannot expect a certain level of privacy just because the land is publicly owned. I'ld be lying if I said it would not be fun to create my own wilderness videos like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTy0TNEBlNg, but not at the cost of destroying the wilderness feeling for others. 1 or 2 drones a day passing by would not bother me, but no one rain drop is responsible for the flood. 1 drone hovering over head would annoy the p1ss out of me. I would liken that to me going to the edge of someone's campsite and just staring at them for an hour (hey, its public land, they should not expect any privacy?). I do not think it's illegal, but incredibly bad form. I have never been successful asking anyone to turn their music down, I have no reason to believe "talking to the owner" would get other response then "f-off, I can do what I want, free country". I do not believe the owner would not already be aware of what they are doing and what the impact to others is.
sierra
Well-known member
I confess to knowing little about drones, so your piece was educational. While the noise may not bother you, I find it curious, the way you say, if it's not destroying nature, I don't worry about it. Some would say, a whiney Drone, does just that, destroy thier Wilderness experience. One must, if considerate, try to understand how they may impact other's experience. My dog is leashed for that very reason, not everybody likes dogs. I try not to have him bother non dog lovers. As far as the privacy issue, I'm personally not worried about that myself, me and my dog have been photographed a lot, (granted they ask first). To me, a Drone is no different then carrying a boom box on your shoulder, but that's just my opinion. I have not seen any up high, so it's not even an issue to me yet. I saw one buzzing around the Highland Center, so I have experienced them up close. My verdict, they are annoying as hell. Would I do anything about it if I saw someone using one up high? No, I wouldn't. Its up to the law to handle that. My guess is, that IF and that's a big if, they become very popular, they will be banned from the National Forest, but that is mere speculation on my part. Over the years, its always something new. Many just fade away as non issues. Time will tell where this one falls, (pun intended).
While people should be respectful and mindful, we all have blind spots and make mistakes. Without feedback from others, we're likely to repeat those errors. Many people are receptive to reasonable feedback. Attempting to shoot down a drone or accusing it's operator of something nefarious is not likely to be well received, but a simple request may be. Refusing to attempt to communicate due to your assumption that won't work is any easy trap to fall into, I know. It's really hard to overcome our own biases and experience, but without a dialogue you can be sure nothing will change. Without that effort, one creates a self-fulfilling prophecy: I don't believe anything will change, so I won't do anything, therefore nothing changes. Sure, doing something might only work 10% of the time, but doing nothing has a much lower success rate.
I think there is a distinction between 'an expectation of privacy' and 'expecting a certain level of privacy'. I take the prior to be more absolute, while the latter I take to be more of a statistical thing. On a main trail to a major peak on a summer weekend, I'd expect far less than I would in the woods, off trail, mid week in spring. I expect less privacy peeing above treeline than I do in the woods. I expect less privacy at a shelter than a stealth site. These expectations are driven by the odds of running into other people, not by my understanding/interpretations of the law.
Perhaps what you're getting at is more about social norms? Yes, someone could come set up a tent right next to yours and it would be legal, but it's a violation of social norms - the unwritten rules. It would be like someone moving your jacket from a seat you've claimed. It's not illegal, but it's interpreted as a violation of one's space, even if that seat were in a public park. It makes one uncomfortable/upset to feel as though someone else isn't playing by the rules. The problem is the rules aren't well defined and are subject to interpretation. In the case of drones, given their newness, we try to apply existing rules to them (e.g. 'don't watch someone while their going to the bathroom'), but it's not an easy fit.
Again, I think this is a good conversation to have, especially as many of us are likely to all run into this kind of situation at some point.
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Hunting in season is allowed in the National Forest. Easy to mistake a flying object for a grouse or a duck or a turkey or a drone that is in season. I mean.....
I don't get to quote the NRA very often.
"Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second."
ExploreTheEast
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I support this as well. Drones have no place in a designated Wilderness area. I'm pretty sure they're already banned there, and hopefully that remains!
Sierra, you're not going to find me knitpicking about the lines of what destroys nature and what doesn't. Planes flying overhead? Not a big deal to me. Chainsaws to clear a trail? Sounds like the most humane solution to clear it! My very footprints leave more of a negative impact than some drone noise that is 100% LNT. Thankfully, I haven't seen a boombox in the wilderness (or anywhere else, haha) since the 90's, but I do regularly see people playing their iphone music through a bluetooth speaker as they are hiking, and as I said above, I believe that's just their way of experiencing wilderness. They need a soundtrack for nature. To each her own, I can't judge them. I'm glad their out there, period. Same with the dogs and the horses and the mountain bikers and the people on their cellphones.
Regarding shooting down a drone, hey, if you've got the skill and don't care about committing a federal crime, more power to you! In fact, 20 years ago when I was a young *******, I probably would have done this, just for fun! These days I'm a bit more of a law-abiding citizen (except for speed limits, which I do try to break at least once a day). But you won't catch me getting all "Live Free or Die" anymore, my outlaw days are behind me. On the positive side to getting your drone shot down, most of us that are serious drone pilots have a million dollars in insurance coverage anyway, so if you shoot one down, you basically get us a free upgrade!
jrbren
New member
TJsName - I agree it is not a short discussion and can be interesting, you make several good points. I would not approach a stranger asking them to fly their drone someplace else, I just do not see a good outcome to that discussion.
ExploreTheEast - I am too much of a wimp to shoot at drones, I would be afraid they have or will invent one (for commercial use, I know they already exist in the military) that has deflector shields and can shoot back !
To date, I have never had a real issue with drones, likely because they are banned in wilderness areas that I go to. It takes little imagination though to see how they could quickly become a real intrusion to wilderness.
Aside : I can say airplane noise does bother me from time to time at the Wachusett Reservoir, I think there is a pilot school nearby, but I am not going to b1tch about it. Just something to put up with like traffic noise in any area near a busy road. Best to have well practiced pilots !
ExploreTheEast - I am too much of a wimp to shoot at drones, I would be afraid they have or will invent one (for commercial use, I know they already exist in the military) that has deflector shields and can shoot back !
To date, I have never had a real issue with drones, likely because they are banned in wilderness areas that I go to. It takes little imagination though to see how they could quickly become a real intrusion to wilderness.
Aside : I can say airplane noise does bother me from time to time at the Wachusett Reservoir, I think there is a pilot school nearby, but I am not going to b1tch about it. Just something to put up with like traffic noise in any area near a busy road. Best to have well practiced pilots !
DougPaul
Well-known member
Read my previous post: Drones can legally fly over designated wilderness, but cannot land, take off, or be flown from designated wilderness. (I wish they were banned, but that appears to be the law.)
Just because the noise doesn't bother you doesn't mean it doesn't bother other humans or animals.
I have watched a loon making an alarm display when an aircraft flew over its pond. (The aircraft was probably at least 1000 ft AGL.) Loons have not fledged chicks on that pond in a number of years because of human disturbance. (A number of humans visit the pond and pond area by ground routes in addition to the aircraft disturbance.)
Sightseeing flights have been banned over parts of the Grand Canyon because the noise annoyed humans.
Doug
sierra
Well-known member
I support this as well. Drones have no place in a designated Wilderness area. I'm pretty sure they're already banned there, and hopefully that remains!
Sierra, you're not going to find me knitpicking about the lines of what destroys nature and what doesn't. Planes flying overhead? Not a big deal to me. Chainsaws to clear a trail? Sounds like the most humane solution to clear it! My very footprints leave more of a negative impact than some drone noise that is 100% LNT. Thankfully, I haven't seen a boombox in the wilderness (or anywhere else, haha) since the 90's, but I do regularly see people playing their iphone music through a bluetooth speaker as they are hiking, and as I said above, I believe that's just their way of experiencing wilderness. They need a soundtrack for nature. To each her own, I can't judge them. I'm glad their out there, period. Same with the dogs and the horses and the mountain bikers and the people on their cellphones.
Regarding shooting down a drone, hey, if you've got the skill and don't care about committing a federal crime, more power to you! In fact, 20 years ago when I was a young *******, I probably would have done this, just for fun! These days I'm a bit more of a law-abiding citizen (except for speed limits, which I do try to break at least once a day). But you won't catch me getting all "Live Free or Die" anymore, my outlaw days are behind me. On the positive side to getting your drone shot down, most of us that are serious drone pilots have a million dollars in insurance coverage anyway, so if you shoot one down, you basically get us a free upgrade!
As with many aspects of life, it's all relative to our own perspective. While you may think your Drone noise is LNT, I do not. It's leaving a trace in my ears, when I have to hear it. On the other hand, leaving footprints to me is a non-issue. Footprints don't hurt the land imo, the land is to use. Planes flying over head is not a good comparison, they are not knowingly interfering with someone's wilderness experience. Look, I get it, you like drones, to each his own, I'm just saying from my perspective they are intrusive to other's in a direct way in the backcountry. If that doesn't bother you, then you will fly them. It's not like there out there really, so at this point, I'm not worried about it any way. Final note, my dog hates, motorcycles, bicycles, yard machines and I'll bet a million bucks drones. I double dog dare you, to land that near my Aussie.
iAmKrzys
Member
You can file a complaint to USAF if it's flights are too noisy over some national parks: https://www.nature.nps.gov/naturals...rnPacificRegionalSourcebook_PDFs/chapter4.pdf
DougPaul
Well-known member
When we in Grand Canyon (back in the 1960s) we commented to a Ranger that we had seen a military aircraft flying in the canyon and he asked us if we had noted the tail number. We hadn't but it was clear that they wanted to enforce the no-fly zone regulations.
So if you can, get the tail number and report it to a Ranger. (Military flights are legal over the WMNF, so don't worry about it there.)
Doug
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