DSLRs - how well in winter cold?

[Peakbagr]

How do the DSLRs fare in winter conditions?
I know better than to drag one out in wet snow, but if its just cold out, do they function OK or do you leave them home and use the small autofocus pocket cameras?
I know most DSLRs use variants of Lithium batteries and was hoping that would do the trick.

Thanks

 

[DougPaul]

Remember, there are moving mechanical parts too. Ice can jam them and lubricants can thicken.

Luminous Landscape has a page on how well DSLRs survived on a trip to Antarctica http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/aa-07-worked.shtml.

I haven't really cold stressed my DSLR yet. One thing to note is that Canon rates the min temp for their digital cameras as 32F. (Many Canons have operated well below this temp if you keep moisture out of them.)

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

I have never had a cold-related failure of a DSLR, but I am sure you could make it happen if you tried.

I used a Canon XT for all 10 days of the W48x9 and had no problems at all, despite using a chest pouch which was not very resistant to infiltration by snow and frost. There was no shortage of cold, wet, or wind. Or "snories".

My advice for shooting in cold weather would be:

1. Keep the camera in a bag that is both quickly accessible and weatherproof. A chest pouch is the way to go in winter, positioned high enough to not interfere with your movement. I still have yet to find the bag that fulfills those two seemingly basic needs. I imagine a small amount of heat from your torso makes it's way into the camera when carried here as well, which can't hurt.

2. Keep the camera dry as possible - a small cloth is all you need to dab off any melted snowflakes and the moisture from your breath before putting it back in the bag (before it freezes) Shooting in big wet snowflakes is much, much more challenging than cold, dry flakes.

3. Shoot as quickly as possible to minimize the camera body's exposure to the cold. This means anticipating as much as you can before the camera comes out of the bag - where you are going to stop, how you are going to frame the shot, etc.

The lower latitude of many snow scenes is a perfect place to use DSLRs - don't hesitate to get out there and play in the snow with them!

 

[w7xman]

Cold certainly presents problems for the photographer, but I've managed to shoot my 20D in as cold as -30 with relative successes...

I also leave my camera in my car in winter, batteries out, so that there is no acclimotization on a cold morning heading out too shoot...

However, there are problems with the cold, as indicated above. Here are some of my common problems and how I've found solutions:

1) Autofocus...I have found that below zero it is sluggish, slow and seeking. I'm told that this is due to the grease in the lens thickening up, and I have at times had to go over to manual focus. A few liner gloves and a hot pack for the hands is helpful.

2) Batteries. They don't like to work long in the cold. I keep extras in my inner pockets, often with another heat pack. Often, rewarming 'dead' batteries will get more shots out of them.

3) Condensation...Changes in temperatures are your enemy in the winter just as much as the cold. Bringing a cold camera into a warmer environ, or into your jacket will soak your camera with condensation, often inside and out. I always strap a canoeing dry sack to my winter pack and seal it up in there when entering huts, yurts and camps. Let it acclimotize to the indoor temperatures in the sealed sack, then you can take it out...

 

[DougPaul]

3) Condensation...Changes in temperatures are your enemy in the winter just as much as the cold. Bringing a cold camera into a warmer environ, or into your jacket will soak your camera with condensation, often inside and out. I always strap a canoeing dry sack to my winter pack and seal it up in there when entering huts, yurts and camps. Let it acclimotize to the indoor temperatures in the sealed sack, then you can take it out...

This is, IMO, one of the biggest problems in winter--keeping condensate from your breath, your body, or a warm room off a cold camera.

I always carry my camera cold away from my exhaled breath and warm damp body. I also try not to exhale on it when taking the pics.

A ziplock bag should also do a good job of keeping moisture off a camera.

Changes in temp can also cause the mechanical parts to expand and contract differently which could cause the mechanism to bind and distort the optics.

It used to be possible to get a camera winterized, perhaps still with modern cameras.


As far as batteries are concerned, lithium primary (non-rechargeables) work best in the cold, NiMH and Lithium Ion (rechargables) next, alkalines poorly, and forget dry cells (zinc-carbon).

Carrying 2 sets of batteries, so that one can carry one set in a warm pocket allows one to swap if the batteries in the camera get too cold. Just keep the ones in your pocket in a ziplock etc to keep them dry. The cold does not discharge or kill batteries--it only slows the chemistry. Rewarming will speed up the chemical reactions which may enable you to get more use out of the batteries.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

3. Shoot as quickly as possible to minimize the camera body's exposure to the cold. This means anticipating as much as you can before the camera comes out of the bag - where you are going to stop, how you are going to frame the shot, etc.

If you carry the camera cold (ie in an external case or in your pack), taking it out shouldn't make it any colder. However, the longer you have it out, the more chance you will get condensate from your skin or breath on it.

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

If you carry the camera cold (ie in an external case or in your pack), taking it out shouldn't make it any colder.

Taking the camera out of it's cozy little case into a blowing wind chills the camera quite dramatically in my experience, particularly if you are setting the camera up on a tripod. If it's calm and/or sunny out, the difference is much less pronounced.

 

[DougPaul]

Taking the camera out of it's cozy little case into a blowing wind chills the camera quite dramatically in my experience, particularly if you are setting the camera up on a tripod. If it's calm and/or sunny out, the difference is much less pronounced.

Basic physics.

Insulation around the camera will only slow the rate of temp change as it trends toward the ambient. Once the camera is at the ambient temp, its temp will not change when it is removed from its case.

OTOH, you may get cold while you fool around with the camera...

And wind chill does not apply to cameras at ambient temp.

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

The camera isn't at the ambient temp when it's in my chest pouch, it's quite a bit above it from my body heat seeping into the case, yet still below freezing.

I am basing what I say on practice and field experience, not theory...I save that for the measurebators.

 

[DougPaul]

The camera isn't at the ambient temp when it's in my chest pouch, it's quite a bit above it from my body heat seeping into the case, yet still below freezing.

If you keep your camera warm with body heat, you risk condensate on the camera. Judging by your pics, you seem to be successful at keeping the camera dry enough to do its job. And yes, if you keep the camera above ambient, it will cool faster if you take it out of its case. (Also basic physics.) But that cozy case also insulates the camera from your body heat.

I am basing what I say on practice and field experience, not theory...I save that for the measurebators.

Let us keep to the issues, not name calling.

I could ask for actual measurements supporting your assertion, but it isn't worth my time to prolong it that far.

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

Sorry Doug

Sorry Doug, I just get a bit perturbed when people question what my actual field experience based on some equation or theoretical angle. Prefacing your remarks with one-liners like "Basic Physics" doesn't help much, I should add.

If you keep your camera warm with body heat, you risk condensate on the camera.

Not if the camera case is relatively waterproof (think vapor barrier)- your body heat still gets in but moisture doesn't.

I have been shooting all manner of cameras in the cold since 1990, and pretty much have an idea of what bothers them and how they react to different treatments. On Denali I used a gallon ziploc with an OM-4T, carried zipped up in my altitude suit - same theory - keep the camera operational by keeping it slightly warmer than the ambient, but keep it dry, then use it quickly and get it back into the case.

Letting the camera get to ambient temperature in the Whites above treeline, especially in high-moisture or sub-zero conditions is not something you want to do if you want to shoot all day in my experience.

 

[DougPaul]

Tim,

You didn't state that you keep your camera any meaningful amount above ambient. (If your camera case is outside your shell, I suspect that the camera temp ends up rather close to the ambient.) Without that statement, your comment that the camera cools faster outside of the case is not necessarily true. (There are people who think that insulation alone will keep an object without a heat source above ambient temp.)

There might also be more than one successful strategy for keeping a camera operating in the cold. I have carried a film SLR out in the cold since the mid-70s and have never had any problem with keeping it at the ambient temp. (Its controls were mechanical so it may be less temp sensitive than some DSLRs.)

None of us can escape basic physics. (Although people occasionally delude themselves that they have invented yet another perpetual motion machine...)

This is risking becoming a waste-of-time pissing contest. Perhaps it is time to simply agree to drop it and move on.

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

Tim,
You didn't state that you keep your camera any meaningful amount above ambient. (If your camera case is outside your shell, I suspect that the camera temp ends up rather close to the ambient.) Without that statement, your comment that the camera cools faster outside of the case is not necessarily true. (There are people who think that insulation alone will keep an object without a heat source above ambient temp.)
Doug

I did state that I suspect some body heat makes it's way into the chest pouch on my first post of physics-defying "tips". Although I did say " I imagine", which sure doesn't sound very authoritative. I'll make sure to speak with more certitude in the future.

One thing that is generally agreed on is that cold kills batteries. Some people take the battery out and keep that in a warm pocket and keep the camera in the cold, but I find that puts a serious cramp in my shooting style, as having to put the battery back in with gloves on is generally not something I care to do every 100 yards or so, which can be the interval when I am shooting winter action scenes. The camera does seem to stay warmer to the touch and function better when I carry it in a pouch against my chest. I rarely have a so many thick layers on that my body heat is effectively insulated from the camera pack. This also allows me to take more quick shots without gloves or with silk gloves, as the exterior of the camera body is not as chilled.

So some like it hot, some like it cold...whatever works for you.

Just one added bit, from a page at Adorama on Cold Weather Photography, which pretty much lines up with my experience (not to say that you won't still find plenty of websites and photographers that still swear by the "cold soak" mentality):

Cold Soaking

During operation, digital cameras actually generate their own heat. With some early digital cameras, after continuous operation for a while the batteries became almost to hot to touch! Modern cameras are significantly more efficient and generate less heat, but if you can keep that heat in the camera (by not cold soaking it), you may have fewer cold weather related problems.

Cold soaking is leaving a camera out in the cold until every part is at ambient temperature - and it's likely to increase the probability of cold related problems. Since it can take quite a while for a camera to fully cool, if you only expose your camera to the very coldest temperatures when you're shooting, and put it in a pocket or a camera bag when it's not in use, you'll likely have fewer problems then if you leave it permanently hanging around your neck, fully exposed to the cold. It may not be that much warmer in your pocket or your camera bag but every little helps. See also the section "Hand Warmers," below.

 

[yvon]

Is it good or not, to put my camera in my sleeping bag during the night when the temperature is very cold? (around 60F during the day and -5F during the night)

 

[yvon]

Is it good or not, to put the camera in the sleeping bag during the night when the temperature is very cold? (around 60F during the day and -5F during the night)

 

[DougPaul]

Is it good or not, to put the camera in the sleeping bag during the night when the temperature is very cold? (around 60F during the day and -5F during the night)

The risk of putting a camera in a sleeping bag is that moisture will condense on/in it and then freeze. If you try it, make sure it is waterproofed very well (eg one or two sealed ziplock bags).

If your camera is ok in the cold, you should be able to leave it out. A half-way measure would be to bring only the batteries in your sleeping bag.

Different cameras have different tolerances for cold. The only way to tell for any individual camera is to try it.

At 60F during the day, you have a fairly good chance of thawing and drying a camera if you only get a small amount of condensate in it.

Doug

 

[nartreb]

Yvon,
Wait, what? 60 Fahrenheit during the day and -5 F at night?? Where on earth are you camping?

Anyway, if you're planning to use the camera early in the morning while the weather is still extremely cold, follow my original advice below. If you won't need the camera until the day warms up to some temperature where you're confident the camera will work fine, I'd just keep the camera outside the bag.

Original answer:

Probably good. Just make sure you wrap it in plastic so moisture from your body doesn't come in contact with the camera. (In fact, I always do that when I keep my camera anywhere inside my tent.) And don't kick it too hard
Most cameras don't work very well at -5F, so keeping it warmer than that is probably necessary. (Even if the only weakness is the battery, keeping the camera warmer will help the battery last longer.)
Once the camera is warm, I'd keep it in a somewhat insulated case for a little while, rather than exposing it to -5 F air right away. In theory (sorry Tim, I haven't been willing to test this on my expensive gear), if it cools too rapidly, different parts can shrink at different rates, causing mechanical stress (eg, cracks in the tiny metal connections in the electronics).

 

[DougPaul]

Wait, what? 60 Fahrenheit during the day and -5 F at night?? Where on earth are you camping?

I guessed he was in the desert...

Doug

 

[Tim Seaver]

Nartreb, your concerns about rapid temperature change are not unwarranted, but I think that is more of an issue when you get significantly below zero, and less of an issue when the camera is only slightly warmer than the ambient and you are working in the above zero to below freezing temperature region. Heat packs are used by quite a few pros for extended shooting with digital cameras in cold weather.

Antarctic shooter Joe Harriganon Cold Weather:

The main killers of the digital camera have been, in my experience, freezing the LCD, CCD or CMOS and causing condensation on and inside the camera body and lenses. To avoid condensation, slow warming is key, along with using zip lock bags. If a camera or lens has been extensively chilled, it is important to put it inside a zip lock bag with all the air squeezed out while still outside. When the camera is brought inside, most of the condensation will form on the outside of the zip lock helping to prevent moisture from building inside the camera body or lens.

When it comes to a digital camera body, it should always stay above freezing if possible. Protection of the LCD, CCD or CMOS are critical.To do this I've employed a variety of techniques. The key, no matter what technique you use, is to keep the camera at as even a temperature as possible. Moving a camera in and out of a warm case may damage the components as they expand and contract with 50 degree temperature swings in just minutes. If I must leave the camera on a tripod at -45, for example, I will re-warm it only to freezing before taking it back out for another picture, assuming it may have reached zero Fahrenheit when sitting out.

By far the most portable and economical means of keeping gear warm while in a pack or on a snowmobile for hours on end is hand warmers. Generally, even at -20 or -30F, a few hand warmers strapped to the camera body and lenses while tucked inside of a hearty insulated camera bag will do the trick. This will keep the equipment warm enough not to damage it but hopefully not so hot that the temperature fluctuations damage it as you pull it in and out. (It should be noted that chemical hand warmers require oxygen to operate and shouldn't be sealed inside of a zip lock bag. In addition, the chemical reaction and heat build up of these warmers will produce moisture so periodic ventilation is a must when using them.) If you are using a tripod outside, several hand warmers strapped to the camera body and lens covered with an insulated cozy will help as well. Any insulated cover you use (I make my own out of fleece and nylon shell) should be wind resistant as the Antarctic wind seems to cut through steel at times.

Keeping the camera (if you can) inside a jacket works well if you are sedentary and there is some air movement around the camera. It also works well if you are shooting and simply want to tuck the camera in someplace warm for a minute while you move to a new spot. If you are moving a lot or have the camera sealed inside a jacket this is a bad idea unless you've sealed it in a ziplock as moisture from your body will condense on the camera and most assuredly freeze solid when you pull it out to take a picture. At the least, put your lens cap on when tucking the camera in for a short warm-up or your day will be shot as you permafrost the lens.

 

[DougPaul]

Antarctic shooter Joe Harrigan on Cold Weather:

Nice reference--it is worth reading the whole thing.

In the NE, we generally have humid cold, so static electricity shouldn't be as big a problem. (Outdoors, that is--it is still a problem indoors.)

When he talks about "freezing" the LCD, he doesn't say whether he means permanent damage to the LCD from its fluids freezing or simply the display changes very slowly or stops because the fluids become very viscous in the cold. (You can observe this by putting a digital watch in the freezer.)

As far as the sensors (CCD and CMOS) "freezing", there are versions designed to operate at cryogenic temps (for astronomers--cold reduces the noise), but the versions used in consumer cameras are designed for "normal" temps and appear to malfunction in the cold. Interesting that he observed permanently damaged pixels from the cold. (Solid state electronics usually has storage and operational temp ranges--the storage range is generally a good bit wider than the operational range.)

Canon does state the min temp of operation as 32F. It would be interesting to know what drives this number--fear of ice forming if you exhale on the camera? limits in the electronics? CYA?

Doug