yvon
Active member
nartreb said:
Nepal, nartreb.
DSLRs - how well in winter cold?
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Nepal, nartreb.
DougPaul
Well-known member
Is that the expected max and min for the entire trip or the expected range on successive days and nights?Yvon said:
Doug
w7xman
Active member
yvon said:
To re-agree, As long as you keep the camera in a dry sack or plastic when in your bag, it will work better in these cases. It is putting an unsealed camera through temperature changes that have caused me the most problems. But a sealed, dry, warm camera is the best you can hope for, and your question above achieves this well.
Without a sealed thus dry option, I would actually leave it cold, and take the batteries out to keep them warm atleast!!!!!
yvon
Active member
DougPaul said:
I read that in the informations, "be prepared to have 60 Fahrenheit during the day and -5 F at night". That does not mean every day, but....
w7xman said:
I agree with you
DougPaul
Well-known member
OK.yvon said:
Doesn't sound too hard to keep one's camera out of trouble by either strategy. And if one strategy doesn't work, then you can try the other. Hardest pics to get (for both you and the camera) may be dawn shots.
Doug
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The LCD screen should not be allowed to freeze overnight. My friend killed his Nikon D100 that way. Nikon wouldn't even repair the camera, just offered a small discount on a new one. My mechanical cameras don't care how cold it gets, it's the film that becomes a problem, it gets too stiff to wind without damaging the gears.
I'd recomend sleeping with it.
I'd recomend sleeping with it.
DougPaul
Well-known member
The "freezing" temp of an LCD screen is not the same as the freezing point of water and may vary according to the design of the LCD.paul ron said:
For instance, one manufacturer's reference (http://www.pacificdisplay.com/lcd_temp_range.htm) lists lower temp limits of:
(min operating/min storage temps, all C)
-20/-20
-55/-55
0/-10
-20/-30
-30/-40
Thus there are LCD displays rated to survive lower temps than many of us will ever experience (-34 -- -40 C for me) and LCD displays rated for min temps that all (almost all?) of us have experienced.
Since the camera manufacturers don't seem to want to tell us the min storage temps of their LCD displays, the advice of "don't let it freeze" doesn't give us much guidance.
Do you know what temp he actually exposed the camera to?
Just tried to find a temp rating for the D100--Nikon doesn't seem to want to give one... Fooey on them!
Canon appears to rate all of its cameras for a min of 0C. Seems to me like a CYA rating or they simply assume that customers don't know how to prevent condensation.
Doug
Who would like a meaningful temp rating from manufacturers...
This is what I found as published specs on digital LCD screen temp ratings.
Cannon EOS 1D specs... 32-104° F / 0-40° C
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/1dm2n.html
Cannon EOS 10D specs... 0~40C / 32~104F
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E10D/E10DA.HTM
Nikon D3... Temperature: 0 - 40 °C / 32 - 104 °F, Humidity: under 85% (no condensation
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082312nikond3.asp
Pentax K100D specs... Min Operating Temperature 32 °F Max Operating Temperature 104 °F
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras/pentax-k100d-body-only/4507-6501_7-31961957.html
It seems they don't recomend below freezing ... 32°F as a working temp. Condensation is another issue that has nothing to do with the LCD but effects the electronics and lens functions.
.
Cannon EOS 1D specs... 32-104° F / 0-40° C
http://www.steves-digicams.com/2005_reviews/1dm2n.html
Cannon EOS 10D specs... 0~40C / 32~104F
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/E10D/E10DA.HTM
Nikon D3... Temperature: 0 - 40 °C / 32 - 104 °F, Humidity: under 85% (no condensation
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082312nikond3.asp
Pentax K100D specs... Min Operating Temperature 32 °F Max Operating Temperature 104 °F
http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cameras/pentax-k100d-body-only/4507-6501_7-31961957.html
It seems they don't recomend below freezing ... 32°F as a working temp. Condensation is another issue that has nothing to do with the LCD but effects the electronics and lens functions.
.
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DougPaul
Well-known member
Aren't those numbers the specs for the entire camera, not just the LCD? As noted in my previous post, many LCDs are rated to well below the freezing point of pure water. (Note that LCDs do not contain water. *)paul ron said:
My GPS, which has an LCD screen, is rated 5F (-15C) to 158F (70C). Since the case is sealed against moisture, getting moisture inside is not a problem and there are no moving mechanical parts to freeze. My watch LCD display and the LCD displays in my car have survived temps below 0C.
My guess is that the 0C camera ratings are just CYA ratings based on the fear that the user will get moisture (water) in the camera and it will freeze a mechanical part or ice crystals will damage some other sensitive part of the camera. Many experiences show that many digital cameras will work well below 0C if kept dry.
* LCDs contain special crystals suspended in a dielectric liquid. Freezing an LCD would involve freezing this dielectric liquid, not water. The freezing temp would depend upon the dielectric liquid and would likely not be 0C. A more complete description of LCDs can be found in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_crystal_display
Doug
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You are probably right about the LCDs freezing temps but when you return a camera with a dead screen that is purple, the manufaturer says the warantee has been voided because the camera was exposed to very cold temps, below the recomended working temp. Nikon wouldn't fix my friends camera, just offered a small discount on a referbished one.
So in that light, I'd say sleeping with your DSLR is a better assurance of keeping the warantee valid. Put it in a zip lock bag with some silica packs to keep condensation down to a min.
Oh i did see a recomendation to keep hand warmers with the camera, great idea.
Also be sure to take the lens off the camera when storing it in a potential squeeze environment. The mounts are very flimsy unlike the old mechanical camera that you can carry around by the lens, these things break right off now days.
.
So in that light, I'd say sleeping with your DSLR is a better assurance of keeping the warantee valid. Put it in a zip lock bag with some silica packs to keep condensation down to a min.
Oh i did see a recomendation to keep hand warmers with the camera, great idea.
Also be sure to take the lens off the camera when storing it in a potential squeeze environment. The mounts are very flimsy unlike the old mechanical camera that you can carry around by the lens, these things break right off now days.
.
Grumpy
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My Nikon DiH and Nikon D2Hs both spec operating temperatures and conditions of 0 - 40 °C / 32 - 104 °F, Humidity: under 85% (no condensation).
There is a note in the specifications for both cameras that says they use a low-temperature LCD for the monitor. I really don’t know what that means, in practical terms.
I note that both the autofocus and exposure metering systems on these cameras have a temperature specification – the systems evidently are calibrated at 20° C / 68° F – which indicates they are temperature sensitive to some degree.
The memory cards I use (Sandisk Compact Flash Extreme III) list an operating temp range from -13° F to 185° F. This indicates to me that the electronics in our digital systems may/will be affected by cold (as well as heat).
My Nikon digital bodies sometimes get used in nasty outdoor conditions, below freezing. I’ve not had one fail due to cold, but hardly have pushed the envelope by prolonging their use beyond a few hours in temps down to about 15° F and far less time than that below 0° F.
Rain has been a far greater nemesis for digital SLRs than cold in my experience – I’ve seen the electronics in cameras go completely bonkers due to rain penetration. I had one camera (Nikon D1H) shut down completely on me during a rainy football assignment. It came back to life after drying out next to the car heater on the way home and in the office. LCD monitor failure on one colleague’s D2Hs came on the heels of its exposure to rain – probably failed circuitry.
Batteries are, of course, a real limitation. The rechargeable Ni-MH battery pack used in the Nikon D1H is a poor performer, in my opinion. The Li-ION pack for the D2Hs is far superior.
Although I have come to appreciate and very much enjoy shooting in didgital media with thoroughly automated cameras, I still occasionally pine for the good old days of film and mechanical cameras. The cold weather discussion is one of those moments. “Back in the day,” if you were going to use your gear in extreme cold weather, you could have it “winterized.” Winterization essentially meant having all the internal lubricants removed, since even light oils and greases would tend to thicken up and slow down shutters, lens aperture diaphragms and the like.
I can remember using some economy “off-brand” lenses that became very difficult to focus in cold weather because of grease congealing in the helical focus mechanism. The problem was less severe in the top-line lenses made by Nikon, Pentax, Leica and others, where the focusing mount machining was to closer tolerances. The apparent slop from lower quality machining in cheaper lenses was reduced by generous coatings of grease.
Film also would get brittle, so you had to be a little more gingerly in operating the film advance mechanism – that also cut down on static electricity problems in dry, cold air.
I’m not sure that lens mounts are getting flimsier in modern SLRs, although maybe they are. Lens mounts certainly are becoming more complicated because of the array of electronic connections in them, and the additional mechanical connections required by autofocus lens mechanisms. The lenses we attach to our cameras these days also seem to be a lot bigger and heavier than they were once upon a time.
That said, the company-owned Nikon D1H camera body used by one of my colleagues wound up having its lens mount replaced in an overhaul after about 2 years in service. I suspect damage over and above ordinary wear-and-tear may have been done by careless mounting-dismounting of lenses, and careless handling when heavy and bulky zoom lenses were mounted.
It can happen, even when you think you’re careful. I was very dismayed years ago when the machined metal casting supporting the lens mount on one my Pentax MX camera bodies failed and cracked. I am almost certain the metal became fatigued from supporting a heavy 300 mm lens that frequently was mounted. The lens mount itself was unaffected. The MX bodies weren’t Pentax’s top of the line at the time, but they were very stout and well made pieces of equipment. But nothing will withstand true abuse.
After writing all that, I guess you just have to use stuff until it quits to find out its real limitations.
Sigh …
G.
There is a note in the specifications for both cameras that says they use a low-temperature LCD for the monitor. I really don’t know what that means, in practical terms.
I note that both the autofocus and exposure metering systems on these cameras have a temperature specification – the systems evidently are calibrated at 20° C / 68° F – which indicates they are temperature sensitive to some degree.
The memory cards I use (Sandisk Compact Flash Extreme III) list an operating temp range from -13° F to 185° F. This indicates to me that the electronics in our digital systems may/will be affected by cold (as well as heat).
My Nikon digital bodies sometimes get used in nasty outdoor conditions, below freezing. I’ve not had one fail due to cold, but hardly have pushed the envelope by prolonging their use beyond a few hours in temps down to about 15° F and far less time than that below 0° F.
Rain has been a far greater nemesis for digital SLRs than cold in my experience – I’ve seen the electronics in cameras go completely bonkers due to rain penetration. I had one camera (Nikon D1H) shut down completely on me during a rainy football assignment. It came back to life after drying out next to the car heater on the way home and in the office. LCD monitor failure on one colleague’s D2Hs came on the heels of its exposure to rain – probably failed circuitry.
Batteries are, of course, a real limitation. The rechargeable Ni-MH battery pack used in the Nikon D1H is a poor performer, in my opinion. The Li-ION pack for the D2Hs is far superior.
Although I have come to appreciate and very much enjoy shooting in didgital media with thoroughly automated cameras, I still occasionally pine for the good old days of film and mechanical cameras. The cold weather discussion is one of those moments. “Back in the day,” if you were going to use your gear in extreme cold weather, you could have it “winterized.” Winterization essentially meant having all the internal lubricants removed, since even light oils and greases would tend to thicken up and slow down shutters, lens aperture diaphragms and the like.
I can remember using some economy “off-brand” lenses that became very difficult to focus in cold weather because of grease congealing in the helical focus mechanism. The problem was less severe in the top-line lenses made by Nikon, Pentax, Leica and others, where the focusing mount machining was to closer tolerances. The apparent slop from lower quality machining in cheaper lenses was reduced by generous coatings of grease.
Film also would get brittle, so you had to be a little more gingerly in operating the film advance mechanism – that also cut down on static electricity problems in dry, cold air.
I’m not sure that lens mounts are getting flimsier in modern SLRs, although maybe they are. Lens mounts certainly are becoming more complicated because of the array of electronic connections in them, and the additional mechanical connections required by autofocus lens mechanisms. The lenses we attach to our cameras these days also seem to be a lot bigger and heavier than they were once upon a time.
That said, the company-owned Nikon D1H camera body used by one of my colleagues wound up having its lens mount replaced in an overhaul after about 2 years in service. I suspect damage over and above ordinary wear-and-tear may have been done by careless mounting-dismounting of lenses, and careless handling when heavy and bulky zoom lenses were mounted.
It can happen, even when you think you’re careful. I was very dismayed years ago when the machined metal casting supporting the lens mount on one my Pentax MX camera bodies failed and cracked. I am almost certain the metal became fatigued from supporting a heavy 300 mm lens that frequently was mounted. The lens mount itself was unaffected. The MX bodies weren’t Pentax’s top of the line at the time, but they were very stout and well made pieces of equipment. But nothing will withstand true abuse.
After writing all that, I guess you just have to use stuff until it quits to find out its real limitations.
Sigh …
G.
Tim Seaver
Well-known member
Grumpy said:
I would agree with that. While photographing poison ivy ( the plant, not the person) this summer on a blistering hot day, my Canon 5D went dead in about 2 minutes. What was happening (IMO) was that the sweat from my face was getting sucked into and behind the Quick Control dial.The camera was pointed straight down, so the sweat was sitting in a pool on the back of the dial, probably assisted by turning the dial. I removed the battery and CF card, blew the sweat out as best I could, and in about 10 minutes it was good to go again.
Back to the question of frozen LCDs, it's interesting that the "lowly" Olympus 770SW is one of the few cameras that has a low temperature rating - 14 degrees F. To me, this suggests that it is an area that has room for improvement.
But until then, I will keep my cameras warm and dry as possible, and will let other brave souls experiment with "cold soaking".
DougPaul
Well-known member
After the fact, it is very easy for the manufacturer to say "this kind of damage is due to the LCD freezing" without knowing what conditions the camera was subjected to.paul ron said:
However, as a digital camera owner, I want to know what temps are required to cause the damage so I know when to protect it and when I don't. The generic lower limit of 0C doesn't tell me much...
Doug
DougPaul
Well-known member
Electronic parts most definitely are affected by the temp. If you look at the spec sheets for parts, operating and storage temp limits will generally be specified.Grumpy said:
If one could obtain the spec sheets for all the parts in the camera, one could estimate the lower limit as the highest lower limit of any part and the upper limit from the lowest upper limit of any part. In actuality, there are interactions between the parts so the overall low temp limit might be different. Same for the upper limits, but all parts create heat which must be dissipated through the case--if the temp inside the case gets too high, then individual parts may fail from overheating.
Doug
DougPaul
Well-known member
Don't forget that sweat is salt water (plus other stuff), so even after the moisture has evaporated, there will be deposits left behind. Some of these deposits could be hydroscopic and/or if they become moist, could cause corrosion of metal or electronic parts. If you spilled salt water (or soda or coffee, etc) on, for instance, a computer keyboard, the fix is to turn it off ASAP (preferably before the spill...), rinsing the offending liquid off with pure water, and then drying (which could take a number of days). A camera would be a "bit" harder to clean...Tim Seaver said:
Unfortunately, we (and others) like to take pictures out in the cold, so we always experiment with some degree of cold soaking. I just wish I had more meaningful info on the temp limits of a dry camera.
Doug
DougPaul
Well-known member
I suspect that the critical difference between this camera and most others it that the manufacturer considers it to be water (and thus condensation) proof. This might be a good datapoint for what to expect from other digital cameras if kept dry. (Of course there is no reason to expect that other manufacturers used parts with the same min operating temps as Olympus used on this one, so a proper dry min operating or storage temp rating for other cameras could easily differ.)Tim Seaver said:
Doug
