Edmunds Col Fatality

[hikerbrian]

Not speaking about any incident in particular, but perhaps the point you've raised is that it can take more to scare us more experienced adventurers, causing the threshold to call for help to be harder to meet.

Sort of. Truthfully, I'm not sure how to interpret the data. But what I see is that experienced people tend to die, while inexperienced people tend to get rescued (and live). There are counter-examples. This trend isn't especially clean. But on the face it seems surprising that really, really experienced people can get themselves killed in the Whites (i.e. this most recent example; Matrasova; the ranger on Bond or Twin 10-ish years ago). The take home for me is: don't get too comfortable/confident.

This seems to happen in the climbing world too: inexperienced people tend to take (roped) falls and break their ankles and such. But really, really experienced climbers do things like rappel off the end of their rope (and die) or free solo an easy route and fall (and die). Again, humility is your friend.

 

[rich99]

With his experienced, I assumed he had a heart attack. This can lead to incapacitate someone and make them succomb to hypothermia. Without an autopsy it would be hard to figure anything at this time. Other than crampons, helmets, solo hiking, it begs the question about carrying a BPL/sat phone.

 

[sierra]

Sort of. Truthfully, I'm not sure how to interpret the data. But what I see is that experienced people tend to die, while inexperienced people tend to get rescued (and live). There are counter-examples. This trend isn't especially clean. But on the face it seems surprising that really, really experienced people can get themselves killed in the Whites (i.e. this most recent example; Matrasova; the ranger on Bond or Twin 10-ish years ago). The take home for me is: don't get too comfortable/confident.

This seems to happen in the climbing world too: inexperienced people tend to take (roped) falls and break their ankles and such. But really, really experienced climbers do things like rappel off the end of their rope (and die) or free solo an easy route and fall (and die). Again, humility is your friend.

I think you make a great point and I would add one more category, Don't get to Comfortable/Confident/Complacent. I once walked stood on a belay ledge, 4 pitches up that was 12 inches wide for about 5 minutes waiting for my second to say "climbing" when I looked down and saw my rope was tied in a knot, but NOT clipped in to the belay! Had my second got ready anytime before that, he would have plucked me off the ledge. Guess who didn't make that mistake again.

 

[erugs]

I think that because there are fewer people out in winter that more of them will have high profiles in the world of experience. The man who died from a heart attack on Franconia Ridge a few weeks ago wasn't especially well known. "Kate" became well known but would not have been if she had not died during such horrendous conditions in which she went anyway. She had experience with a guided group, and there she was on her own. Nobody is mentioning the death Brenda Cox who was hiking Lafayette with her husband and they got stuck on the mountain in a storm, despite warnings. Again, she wasn't famous. So the trend is anything but clean, from my readings. Glad you gave that extra look, Sierra.

 

[skiguy]

Back in the day, "real" crampons and an ice ax were derigueur for any outing above treeline. You just brought them, no questions.

I find it interesting that there seems to be a lot of resistance to using crampons. Not quite sure if folks just think they are tough to put on and just easier to slap on a pair of Microspikes. The other comments about being difficult to walk in and stumbling around I find not true for myself. To be honest when I got my first pair of crampons I could not wait to use them. In fact I went out of my way to find a place to use them. I think Sierra's comments about taking the time to learn the craft rings home for me. Buy a copy of Yvon's "Climbing Ice" and go out and use them pons. Ya never know you just might have a fun time!

 

[erugs]

And if you don't have a mentor, rent one (i.e. a guide who will teach you the various techniques). I'm frugal, self-sufficient, generally dislike guides (but for one or two I've met), but that's what I did and I'm glad of it.

 

[Tim Horn]

So in avalanche safety courses we teach that the more experienced a group is in the backcountry the more likely they are to get into a situation that is highly dangerous and they are more likely to end up dead at the end of that experience. Seems backwards but when a risk is assessed by a person with a lot of risky experience then the level of fear response to that experience is diminished. When you put 3-5 "experts" together they tend to under assess the danger they are facing and tend to take much greater risks than non-experts. There are a lot more factors in this process but bottom line is the more expert and experienced a person is the more likely they are to take risks that average folks would not take and that results in much higher fatalities, injuries and incidents for the experts.
I think this phenomenon is the same whether ice climbing, extreme skiing or sailing. It is hard and dangerous to access certain places and if you have no experience you rationally know that some places are just inherently dangerous and you do not go there. Once you have some knowledge you tend to keep pushing the envelope and accepting higher and higher risks as routine. Soon it becomes difficult to even recognize very basic dangers that any person without special experience can identify.

May he rest in peace.

 

[dug]

I've repeated this story before on here, but it applies to the post above perfectly.

My first 'backcountry' ski trip was to Gulf of Slides. We camped out, below the bowl after arriving in the evening. We woke in the morning, packed up and went for a quick jaunt up to see the slides. We were not going to ski them. Just before reaching there, we passed two skiers coming out. We chatted, and they warned us to not ski them due to conditions. We agreed (again, not our plan anyway). As we talked, he told us about all his trips in Oakes Gulf, Great Gulf, etc. and I could tell...he wasn't BS-ing us. He skied down, us up for a bit, staying relatively away from any slide activity. As we skied out, we saw their camp off-trail.

About an hour after departing, they apparently changed their tune and did exactly what we were just warned not to. He perished in a slide while digging a test pit. His experience and knowledge cost him, I firmly believe that.

 

[Raven]

So in avalanche safety courses we teach that the more experienced a group is in the backcountry the more likely they are to get into a situation that is highly dangerous and they are more likely to end up dead at the end of that experience. Seems backwards but when a risk is assessed by a person with a lot of risky experience then the level of fear response to that experience is diminished. When you put 3-5 "experts" together they tend to under assess the danger they are facing and tend to take much greater risks than non-experts. There are a lot more factors in this process but bottom line is the more expert and experienced a person is the more likely they are to take risks that average folks would not take and that results in much higher fatalities, injuries and incidents for the experts.
I think this phenomenon is the same whether ice climbing, extreme skiing or sailing. It is hard and dangerous to access certain places and if you have no experience you rationally know that some places are just inherently dangerous and you do not go there. Once you have some knowledge you tend to keep pushing the envelope and accepting higher and higher risks as routine. Soon it becomes difficult to even recognize very basic dangers that any person without special experience can identify.

May he rest in peace.

Great point. Similarly, experienced hikers find themselves able to go more deeply into the wilderness. Fit trail runners can get very far from roads in a short amount of time, and experienced climbers (I am not) can get themselves into more dangerous, loftier positions since they can handle more challenging routes.

I am interested to hear more details on this one. There is a lot of conjecture at this point.

And yes, RIP.

 

[CaptCaper]

Can't get over not carrying an ID up there.. I mean it's not a Mt Willard hike...Things happen big time up there. We still don't know.when he hiked or how and were he was located..did he have crampons on etc? Non of the folks who was there has given any opinions on what the scene looked like. I do remember that Friday was stormy and windy. I wonder if we'll ever know. I thought I read he didn't leave a plan with anybody but someone must know...what he was up too. He wasn't that "solo" of a guy.

 

[MikeM]

Can't get over not carrying an ID up there.. I mean it's not a Mt Willard hike...Things happen big time up there. We still don't know.when he hiked or how and were he was located..did he have crampons on etc? Non of the folks who was there has given any opinions on what the scene looked like. I do remember that Friday was stormy and windy. I wonder if we'll ever know. I thought I read he didn't leave a plan with anybody but someone must know...what he was up too. He wasn't that "solo" of a guy.

ID would not of helped Tim in this case. NHFG quickly identified him from his car plates at Lowes Store. He was found approximately .5miles from Edmonds Col down the Castle Ravine trail. It has been stated that he was wearing Yak trax. The young men who came across him were experienced winter hiker/campers. They slept near the Col the night before they found him. They have said that he looked properly equipped.

 

[summitseeker]

I find it interesting that there seems to be a lot of resistance to using crampons. Not quite sure if folks just think they are tough to put on and just easier to slap on a pair of Microspikes. The other comments about being difficult to walk in and stumbling around I find not true for myself. To be honest when I got my first pair of crampons I could not wait to use them. In fact I went out of my way to find a place to use them. I think Sierra's comments about taking the time to learn the craft rings home for me. Buy a copy of Yvon's "Climbing Ice" and go out and use them pons. Ya never know you just might have a fun time!

I couldn't agree more. I ascended the Crawford Path on Monday and even with the warming temps and softening ice I would have felt a little better on the descent if I was wearing my K-10s rather than microspikes. The most recent post, i.e. before mine, stated he was wearing Yak Trax. Unless her was wearing the XTR version I would not dare wear anything that lacked true spikes. I chose to wear my brand new pair of microspikes over my older more worn ones knowing full well they would offer better purchase, but in closing I agree that crampons are still the best option when encountering ice flows. Just adding my two cents FWIW

https://www.yaktrax.com/product/xtr
(note the "serious" winter hiker they have modeling them in cotton denim, lol)


Z

 

[NorthShore]

Like most people I've done a lot of easy hikes in microspikes and take it for granted that full crampons are overkill. However I do carry them in winter. I was in the presidentials on the 19th and went too far (in my after the fact opinion) with just spikes, but eventually came to my senses and put on the crampons. Once I did, you couldn't have paid me enough to take them off. There were rocks, but way too much ice to take in a cavalier manner. I don't know how to overcome the perception people have that because you rarely need gear, it is optional.

I don't assume this was due to traction or any other cause and will wait to see what gets into the accident reports. Very sad and sincere condolences to his family. This is hard to even think about.

It's especially freaky for me because he was a local down here (I did not know him but had seen his website) and I found out about this on the same day that I got my NYS Guide License. I think I have done my last solo hike above timberline.

 

[sierra]

Like most people I've done a lot of easy hikes in microspikes and take it for granted that full crampons are overkill. However I do carry them in winter. I was in the presidentials on the 19th and went too far (in my after the fact opinion) with just spikes, but eventually came to my senses and put on the crampons. Once I did, you couldn't have paid me enough to take them off. There were rocks, but way too much ice to take in a cavalier manner. I don't know how to overcome the perception people have that because you rarely need gear, it is optional.

I don't assume this was due to traction or any other cause and will wait to see what gets into the accident reports. Very sad and sincere condolences to his family. This is hard to even think about.

It's especially freaky for me because he was a local down here (I did not know him but had seen his website) and I found out about this on the same day that I got my NYS Guide License. I think I have done my last solo hike above timberline.

In my humble opinion, you learn what to carry from experience. Once you take a bad fall or a few, you realize your either using bad technique or the wrong equipment, or both. The coming of micro-spikes is a double edge sword. Pre MS you just brought crampons, some now carry both, as MS are way better in some conditions, although on ice, I do not like them at all. Many new comers buy MS and stop there, that is a mistake, imo. I have fallen in MS and it hurt. If I'm on ice, I'm in my 12point full crampons, I mean it's easy hiking on ice with them and safe. On social media sites, beginners are urged to buy MS, rarely are crampons recommended as needed gear. Many hikes can be done in MS, but this winter has bred conditions that are beyond MS worthy. I carry both, unless I have info telling me otherwise. Exceptions being Washington or the Northern peaks, where spikes and crampons go on my pack at all times. Frankly there is nothing more satisfying, then marching down a trail covered in blue ice, like it's a sidewalk, only crampons can do that.

 

[CaptCaper]

In my humble opinion, you learn what to carry from experience. Once you take a bad fall or a few, you realize your either using bad technique or the wrong equipment, or both. The coming of micro-spikes is a double edge sword. Pre MS you just brought crampons, some now carry both, as MS are way better in some conditions, although on ice, I do not like them at all. Many new comers buy MS and stop there, that is a mistake, imo. I have fallen in MS and it hurt. If I'm on ice, I'm in my 12point full crampons, I mean it's easy hiking on ice with them and safe. On social media sites, beginners are urged to buy MS, rarely are crampons recommended as needed gear. Many hikes can be done in MS, but this winter has bred conditions that are beyond MS worthy. I carry both, unless I have info telling me otherwise. Exceptions being Washington or the Northern peaks, where spikes and crampons go on my pack at all times. Frankly there is nothing more satisfying, then marching down a trail covered in blue ice, like it's a sidewalk, only crampons can do that.

Great summary... thank you...I couldn't agree more including about the 12 Points.

 

[Hill Junkie]

https://www.yaktrax.com/product/xtr
(note the "serious" winter hiker they have modeling them in cotton denim, lol)
Z

FWIW, I started this winter with Yaktrax XTR's. They utterly failed on my second hike. The front pad area is joined together by nothing more than a thin sheet of plastic, not metal plate. This design is completely unsafe for hiking icy trails in the mountains and the XTRs should only be used for getting the mail or shoveling the driveway. I had to hike most of the way down Zealand after they failed on glazed over trail with no back-up traction. Both feet failed almost the same time.

 

[peakbagger]

I run meetup hikes on occasion and I ban Yaktraks, as others have stated wrong tool for the job.

 

[summitseeker]

FWIW, I started this winter with Yaktrax XTR's. They utterly failed on my second hike. The front pad area is joined together by nothing more than a thin sheet of plastic, not metal plate. This design is completely unsafe for hiking icy trails in the mountains and the XTRs should only be used for getting the mail or shoveling the driveway. I had to hike most of the way down Zealand after they failed on glazed over trail with no back-up traction. Both feet failed almost the same time.

Thank you for sharing your experience with the community. From my computer screen they looked like they might actually be halfway decent. Now I know...


Be well,

Z

 

[RollingRock]

FWIW, I started this winter with Yaktrax XTR's. They utterly failed on my second hike. The front pad area is joined together by nothing more than a thin sheet of plastic, not metal plate. This design is completely unsafe for hiking icy trails in the mountains and the XTRs should only be used for getting the mail or shoveling the driveway. I had to hike most of the way down Zealand after they failed on glazed over trail with no back-up traction. Both feet failed almost the same time.

I think back that before MicroSpikes came around...we were using YakTrax. But many of us also carried/used crampons more often than we do today...me included. Sorry for going off topic...this is really about the fatality.

 

[ChrisB]

Mixed Blessing?

I think back that before MicroSpikes came around...we were using YakTrax. But many of us also carried/used crampons more often than we do today...me included.

The popularity of microspkes, etc. is well deserved, as anyone who has done extended mileage in 12-point crampons knows.

During descent the torque loads crampons place on knees, ankles and hips is significant, especially in mixed rocky and icy conditions. And, 12-points seem to snag any root or rock the front points can reach, making trips and falls more likely as fatigue increases.

IMHO crampons offer a compromise between safety/security on pure ice and ease of travel on scratchy trails.

At least the advent of step-in bindings makes swapping back-and-forth easier, if you have the discipline to do it.

For a soloist, the stakes can be high.

cb