essential winter backcountry gear?

[Neil]

The most dangerous type of hiking is the in-between type. What I mean is that grey area between non-technical and technical. Because you are on the border you can so easily and imperceptably cross over into a situation that is really a technical climb. Due to this, carrying an ice axe, using climbing shoes etc. could draw one closer to this grey area. OTOH, some people do a lot of their hiking quite competantly within that grey area and as a result equip themselves appropriately.

 

[sli74]

I still say the best thing to do is start smaller, on well traveled trails with low chance of needing self arrest skills and then work your way up. I bought an ice axe early on and sort of jumped right in. I did take an ice axe and crampon course with the GMC where a class of 12 people ended up being a class of 2 with 1 instructor so we got a lot of personal attention and practice. My self arrest skills have improved with every winter mountaineering class I have taken and I will continue to practice and carry my axe with me.

I think it is personal preference. I usually just have it on my pack and only take it out to use in a situation where I feel I might need it (remember it does no good just strapped to your pack). To name a few of these situations off the top of my head . . .

1. The trip from Lakes of the Clouds to the summit of Mount Washington in March.
2. The short section near the summit of Mount Jefferson hiking in from Thunderstorm Junction, also in March and
3. Up the Saddle Trail from Chimney Pond on our way to Baxter summit in February.

I think it is important to learn how to use it and when to use it. Most importantly remember that everyone has an opinion and they almost never agree 100% . . . you need to figure out your comfort levels and work within those . . . IF you think an ice axe will give you a false sense of security and make you do something you shouldn't be doing then don't buy one BUT I personally think it is a good idea to buy one, learn to use it, carry it always in winter and USE it when NEEDED. I see no need to limit gear because you cannot make a good clear decision about your risk and experience level.

I have only once left my ice axe and crampons in the car so I wouldn't go into a situation that would prove to be dangerous and that was on Long's Peak in Colorado in June and I was solo and I didn't want to tempt fate and my desire to make summit under conditions that might have put me in over my head BUT in general, I am a big proponent of carrying gear that might be needed and CHOOSE not to use it and turn around rather than find myself further along in a situation without the needed gear.

I know all this confusing to someone just starting out, I was at that same place myself not long ago BUT if you start slow and remember that turning around BEFORE you get in trouble is the BEST "gear" you can carry then you will find yourself deciding for yourself what is best.

Good Luck and remember to have fun

sli74

 

[BrentD22]

well umm

Brent, regarding your slide on Chacura, that's a pretty sobering story. I've watched a slough take 3 people for a ride at Tucks about 10 years ago. Do you think an axe would have significantly changed the outcome for you? I ask because in general, I don't associate self arrest as a way to deal with slides, per se. Other than the smallest of surface sloughs, I thought the best thing to do in an avalanche was to ditch stuff like skis, poles and axes. My understanding (and I could be very wrong on this) was that the theory was these objects would pull you deeper into the slide or impale you.

Does anybody know if that section on Chacura is known as a traditional slide path?

I don't believe Chocorua has a traditional slide path (maybe in a small section), but I was off trail headed straight up the summit cone. Not on purpose, but it was a interesting route.

I do believe things would have been very different. I believe I wouldn't have even slide at all with an ice axe. I believe this because I would have been able to climb more easily with out desturbing so much snow around me. I had to churn my feet to get enough snow under my feet to push upward. I piled the snow up and adventually it gave way. It's hard to explain what I did unless I could show in winter.

 

[Oldsmores]

Interesting conversation, but I'm thoroughly confused

LOL, that's the beauty of free advice - plenty of it, and it's often contradictory. Pick a subject (ice axe, goretex, etc) and you'll get at least 3 opinions (absolutely, never, and maybe). All are valid for the person and the situation. If you're lucky, you can figure out a consensus and give it a try. Then reject it if it doesn't work for YOU!

 

[jfb]

Interesting conversation, but I'm thoroughly confused

Here's some interesting reading related to what kind of shell to wear: What is percent of naked?

Personally, I prefer a Patagonia Krushell for hiking because it breathes well, and I find it plenty windproof. I also carry a Precip layer in case of rain/sleet/wet snow.

 

[dave.m]

... BUT I personally think it is a good idea to buy one, learn to use it, carry it always in winter and USE it when NEEDED.

I could agree with 100% if it was reordered as a) learn to use it then b) buy one. If somebody is set on getting one, better to take a class (like you did) right off the bat so that proper use is learned.

By the way, I would categorize the use of an axe as constituting winter mountaineering, not winter hiking, correct? I would also think that one would be best served to learn how to winter hike safely before attacking more dangerous terrain. This is why I put getting an axe at the bottom of the list and is also why I don't remove it from the list. By all means, if somebody is going on routes where they are exposed to slides of life, they should have an axe and know how to use it.

I see no need to limit gear because you cannot make a good clear decision about your risk and experience level.

The first person I heard of making the case for this was Paul Petzhold. His essay discussed how carrying a climbing helmet had the tendancy of pulling climbers into rock fall zones. I've seen the issue raised in literature about the effects of ski helmets, especially among younger skiers. BC ski guru Steve Barnett made the same arguement in a story about a trip in the cascades a few years ago that appeared in Backcountry. That was in ref to climbing rope.

In all cases I think the core of the arguement against carrying the gear is a recognition that the ability to make a "good clear decision" is often a pretty fuzzy thing and is open all sorts of factors.


Brent,

I'm having a hard time imaging what type of snow climbing conditions would allow you to climb a slope more safely with an axe than without. The one thing that a (long) ice axe does better than ski poles is to set them deep in the snow for an anchor or a hold. While I can see this being a benifit for stability when kicking steps, I can't imagine this providing enough purchase to keep you from needing to "build" steps when you are in unconsolidated snow as you described. Sounds to me that you climbed a wind-loaded slab that had been in the lee of the wind that deposite the snow. My understanding (somebody correct me if I'm wrong on this) is that human triggered sloughs are always very possible in such localized places. A buddy whom I trust advocates using ski poles to test for such localized instability and avoiding such slopes entirely if/when pockets of instability are detected.

 

[sierra]

Dave M.
Ill do my best to reiterate my points. First off I Have never had a problem getting wet or hot wearing GT, not that it cant happen, but I believe its the layering underneeth (sp) that is crucial to using a shell, I carry many interchangable layers and never hesitate to stop and change for whatever conditions I encounter. On that point Im always amazed on trails like Tucks in the winter, I see people leaving the parking lot in full pile suits, GT as well, on a trail like that, moving fast, you would sweat for sure. I like its windproof qualities as much as its waterproofness, I always use jackets that have pit zips(and I use them) this system allows me to vent and stay out of the wind which as you know can really pull heat of you and screw up how you regulate your body temps. Ok to each his own on GT, I realize there are ohter systems and I bet many of them work great for those who use them.
I am steadfast in my opinion that ice axes are essential in the winter, but I cenceed that there are many trails that they are not required. I still think a beginning winter hiker needs to buy one right off and yes definelty learn to use it, they most certainly be dangerous. Maybe its me but Ive found an ax useful many times in the Whites, the summer route on Lions head use to stay open longer, There was a steep snowfield you had to cross that would most certainly produce a very dangerous fall,although this was very short section and yes you probloy could do it with poles all it takes is a simple slip and self arresting with poles is a joke Ive tried it. On a side note this leads me to a point about the Whites, it seems that there are many times where when althouge you need an axe its for a very short time, still I stop take it off and strap on my poles, then stop and redo the whole deal, it only takes a minute to have the wrong gear in your hand and pay for it, this same point has come up many times in the past about crampons and taking the time to switch into them from snowshoes and then back.
As for specific routes Ill list the ones I like off the top of my head. IN thinking on this I realize that a beginner proboly would not be on these routes, but they are great winter routes and I would never climb them without an axe.
LIons head winter.
Central Gully Hunningtons
Great gully and headwall King ravine.
Great Gulf Headwall
The cone on Washington with bulletproof conditions.
Beaver brook trail in icey conditions
Tuckermans headwall
Left gully and others in tucks in hard snow conditions.

Thats all I can think of right now.

 

[dave.m]

Sierra,

As I suspected, I think we are 99.9% in agreement regarding ice axes. From everything I know about the routes you mentioned, an ice axe is needed for each and every one of them, if even for short section. And we are in agreement that if it needed for a short section, it is needed period. And we are in agreement that beginners shouldn't be on those routes. I'll add that I don't consider myself to be a beginner winter camper, hiker and backcountry skier at this point and consider those routes well beyond my skills. Which leads us to the 0.1% that we may not agree on which is the question of timing. I just think there is a whole slew of other equipment investments and skills that a beginner needs to acquire well in advance of picking up an ice axe. There is a lot of terrain out there. Lots of options of places to go.

By the way, given the routes that you've listed I suspect you spend a lot of time above treeline. This probably suggests why we have slightly different perspectives on GoreTex. As I said in other places, the windproofness of GoreTex makes it far and away the best shell to have when you are above treeline or skiing downhill. But I don't bother packing it when I'm on backcountry ski trips in the dead of winter.

 

[spider solo]

There is one piece of equipment I carry in the winter. A small folding saw that fits in my waist pouch.
Reading this weeks reports of all the blowdown from the wet snow a saw comes into it's own.
While you can't saw through big tree trunks you can often cut off a few branches to ease your passage and help keep you from having to crawl over, under and through the snow quite as much.
Taking a few minutes to use the saw often helps warm you. Crawling through wet snow tends to do the opposite especially if you have a full day of it.
A small saw comes into it's own as we hike the forested trails. Once above tree line you probably won't be reaching for it but back below tree line it sure comes in handy.
In the event that the day gets away from you a small saw comes in handy for making a fire or a splint (on a really bad day).

 

[giggy]

Ice Axe Vs Poles - I think its a personal preferecne -


I dove right into winter hiking/mountainerring with a 3 day course in which was taught the axe - therefore - I tend to use the axe more for the "3rd leg" and keeping balence on the steeper terrain - I do spend more time above treeline than below - so I guess I do more winter mountaineering than hiking - but those terms are subjective to who is using them.

I feel more comfortable with the axe - rather than poles. below treeline - poles are probably better.

I guess if your starting out and learning by yourself - the poles would be the better choice below treeline.

 

[sierra]

Dave M,
Right on dave, Ive read many of your post in the past and have no doubt your experienced and have given much good advice on various topics. I have and do spend alot of time above treeline and on what I consider the best alpine routes in the Whites, ussually solo. I use them to train for peaks out west and challange myself as well, Ive done alot of technical rock and ice as well, so proficiency on these routes is at hand.
Beginners sure do need alot of gear and more importantly the experience on how to use it. I would still suggest getting an axe and also the training in the form of classes and or books. Freedom of the hills could get any beginner a long way. Practice using an ixe axe should be on a hill not on a mountain, can be anywhere, it takes alot of practice to become proficient enough with a tool to warrant its use in steep terrain. Self arresting is no joke, depending on condtions, it can be darn scary. Ive done hard steep snow gullys that would require a self arrest within seconds or its to late, techniques and situations like that must be second nature when the time comes. Anywho, I digress, Ive enjoyed this dialog between us.