Everest: Beyond the Limit. Discussion Note ***WITH SPOILERS***

[JohnL]

Easy? I had just the opposite impression. Climbing nearly 2,000 vertical feet on a few hours sleep and even less food, sucking bottled oxygen, taking a step every two or three breaths, standing around for hours waiting for slower climbers in negative temperatures, making delicate moves on rock in crampons with two miles of air beneath you, walking past last year’s corpses for whom it wasn’t that easy, and maneuvering the jumars with cold hands and extra thick mittens just does not look or sound that easy to me.

A few other observations:
Absolutely concur with Doug on the Annapurna books. The book by Herzog contains considerable fiction as well as omitted facts.

I thought Brice’s demeanor was appropriate for his job. I would not want someone who is a jolly old soul (sorry, can’t get the season out of my head.) on the other end of the radio. I want someone who is calm and assured under pressure. Having been to many slide shows by ‘professional’ alpinists and having engaged them in conversations afterwards, I have yet to meet one who seemed really what I would call TV personable. Intense, yes but not really that personable. Maybe it was me! Warning: generalization ahead. Brice is from New Zealand and they (along with Brits) tend to be more understated than Americans. End of generalization. I also felt he was genuinely broken up about the loss of the Sherpa. I did not see them as crocodile tears.

Not sure of Tim’s training regimen or climbing CV, but I thought it was the combination of his strength and attitude that got him as far as it did. He, almost tragically, underestimated what it took to get the last section of the mountain behind him. I was dreading all week that his stubbornness and bad judgment would lead to tragic results.

The French guy (sorry, forgot his name) was incoherent and stupefied at best above Camp 4. He would have jumped down the Great Couloir if he saw Tim doing it. I think he got what he came to the mountain for; trophy stumps.

Max: Strong guy. Big heart. I’d want him on my rope.

Mark: A lotta guts. A real tough guy. He endured a bit of extra suffering. So glad he made the summit.

Brett: Was it really the altitude that stopped him?

Hillary Step: Yes, it’s on the SE Ridge and is not a part of the North Ridge climb.

Survivor on Everest? Not sure what you expected. Very few ‘professional’ climbers go near Everest any more.

Competition among groups: Absolutely. After seeing how many people were bottlenecked at critical points on the route, you better believe there is strong competition to be there first. Not every group puts up fixed ropes. You don’t want to do all that work and then have other groups monopolize the fruits of your efforts and prevent you from having members of your team succeed.

Degrading other teams: Justified. Many groups lure climbers to go over there on the cheap. IIRC, after Sharp died, they went through his belongings and came across his receipt for his Everest trip: just over $7,000. No Sherpas, no doctors, no guides, no fixed ropes, no extra Os. Brice was sizing up how many of his resources may have to be used to aid other less provisioned teams. Remember the Indian climber?

Degradation to the environment: In the past, professional mountaineers were not the role models for environmentalism either. The South Col was littered with empty oxygen bottles and battered tents well before commercial expeditions came to the mountain. Brice’s expeditions (and I would guess others as well) carry out all their Base Camp waste (human and otherwise) in barrels. Not sure if that applies to ABC as well. Judging from the costs associated with new oxygen bottles, I would go out on a limb and assume that many of the empty bottles are carried down. I believe that the Nepalese and Chinese expedition rules are now more environmentally strict than they were back in Chris Bonington’s day.

North side vs South side: The South side used to be more popular, mainly because the Chinese would not allow climbing from the Tibetan side. Not any more. Hundreds of climbers now climb from both sides.

Appeal to mountaineers (or serious hikers like us): IMHO, there was plenty of appeal to go around. And judging from some comments, plenty of education as well. I know I learned a bunch of new things.

Sherpas: Sherpa is the name of a race of people, not a profession. Please capitalize Sherpa. I don’t think we’d like to be called americans, canadians, bob or brenda. They are absolutely the workers on the mountain. Without their work, these luxury summits would not be possible. And lots of ready made protection and camps nearly all the way to the top.

Film editing: The viewers are at the mercy of the editors. They can tailor the media to make you think what they want you to think.

All in all, I really enjoyed the series. Great filming, educational, conflict, drama, emotion.

JohnL

 

[dms]

One thing is crystal clear, the Sherpas are the backbone of these commercial trips. They do all the work. Watching them deal with all the problems they face under life and death conditions just fills me with awe. I can only hope that Mr. Brice rewards them commensurate with their efforts that make his business the success that it is.

 

[Chip]

Which came first: The lung capacity or Everest ?

On a bit of a philosophical note: Does anyone else find it interesting that the highest mountain in the world is almost EXACTLY at the limit of the human capacity to climb ? There could be smaller mountains, more easily climbed, or higher mountains which are beyond man's ability. Not my ability, per se, but Everest exists right there at the specific limit of a select group's ability to summit without oxygen. Hmmmm...

 

[DougPaul]

On a bit of a philosophical note: Does anyone else find it interesting that the highest mountain in the world is almost EXACTLY at the limit of the human capacity to climb ? There could be smaller mountains, more easily climbed, or higher mountains which are beyond man's ability. Not my ability, per se, but Everest exists right there at the specific limit of a select group's ability to summit without oxygen. Hmmmm...

Just dumb luck, I expect.
There is also an weather "feature" that raises the summit pressure about 10 millibars during the climbing season. Probably makes the difference for some.

Humans are lousy at altitude. Barred geese regularly fly over Everest.

The highest that humans can live at continuously is about 16-17Kft.

Doug

 

[Paradox]

Greatly enjoyed the series. I don't think I will ever get there, which is a good thing. I agree with the comments on how the editing greatly influences our opinions, but my impression is that Brice and his group have been the subject of undue criticism. What was anybody else doing to help that climber who died? Why was he up there alone, putting others at risk for his own low cost dream (Everest on an HMO ) I recall reading about the "fellowship of the rope". Does the fellowship include an interloper who plugs himself into your rope and the world says "Ha! now you Mr. Rope Owner are responsible for his well being?"

I received an email recently about outrageous lawsuits. One of the best was this and I cannot confirm its autheticity:

Terrence Dickson of Bristol, Pennsylvania, was leaving a house he had just finished robbing by way of the garage. He was not able to get the garage door to go up since the automatic door opener was malfunctioning. He couldn't re-enter the house because the door connecting the house and garage locked when he pulled it shut. The family was on vacation, and Mr. Dickson found himself locked in the garage for eight days. He subsisted on a case of Pepsi he found, and a large bag of dry dog food. He sued the homeowner's insurance claiming the situation caused him undue mental anguish. The jury agreed to the tune of $500,000.

If true it is interesting commentary on how we view our own responsibilities in this world.

 

[Paradox]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/2005-01-30-tort-reform_x.htm
Just received a note from bikeshikeskifish with the above link. Sorry for any misinformation. Actually, a bit of a relief.

 

[king tut]

i thought the series was great! I am glad that they had amateurs climbing, i would have been real bored watching professionals climb the mountain. I might be more interested in watching pro's climb some other very large mt that did not have ropes already pre-strung and routes already mapped out. This hike looked like it was about 90 % easier than what the first climbers ever encountered before there were routes or ropes. What struck me most is the feeling that anyone in reasonably good shape could have a chance to make it to the top. From all that i have read about the mountain, it looked a lot easier than i ever could have imagined. About the characters...

Tim-I liked him. Never expected him to make it that far. Kind of ironic that he almost makes it to the top and Mogens does not even get close.

Gerrard? (the french guy)-dude seemed like he wanted to die. I have a feeling that he would have been happier making it to the top and being dead rather than falling short and losing all those appendages.

Russell Brice- He was ok. Just seemed like he was a guy that had lost a lot of friends climbing and was now emotionally detached and just there to make some money. As far as the whole thing about him leaving the dead guy at mushroom rock, that seemed like b.s.. How are a group of 6 or 7 exhausted climbers going to haul an almost completely dead guy down the mountain??? I am a proponent of not getting yourself into situations that you cannot get yourself out of. That solo climber dug his own grave. Don't blame capitalism and greed, blame stupidity.

Terry O'Connor -He was the shit. Smart, athletic, made it look so easy. Normally you hate perfect people, but he is just so darn likeable. What an ***hole!

Mark Inglis-Great accomplishment, but he would have died without everyone's help. Did he really climb the world's highest mountain? Just seems like a lot of these climbs should have asterisks. If you could drop someone off in a helicopter at 26,000 feet and they climb the rest, did they climb the mountain? I really love the older trekking stories of people starting a couple thousand feet above sea level and trekking their way into the valleys and then climbing the mountain.

Brett- He seemed really nice. He didn't want to risk death or losing any appendages. He is either the smartest one of the crew or the biggest wuss, depends on your viewpoint.

Max Chaya- Strong climber. Good soul. Seemed like he was the only one that wanted to save the dying guy.

That's my summary. I thought the camera work was amazing, and this was by far the best Everest footage i have ever seen. This was the only thing on tv that i was looking forward to in a while. One thing that struck me was that the climbing did not seem that incredibly more difficult than climbing Mt Washington in mid January would be. Just a thought.

 

[daxs]

It seems that Everest is or is becoming a money maker for outfitters such as Russell Brice. Outfitters are now offering trips to Everest that do not involve a summit attempt. You can book a trip on the south side of Everest that takes you thru the Khumbu icefall as far as camp II. On the Northside, you can book a trip that take syou as far as the north col.

I did enjoy watching the series. For many ont he climbers I also wondered what their credentials were. According to Brice's website, you needed both medical clearance and a climbing CV submitted for consideration on the trip.

 

[jrbren]

What struck me most is the feeling that anyone in reasonably good shape could have a chance to make it to the top. From all that i have read about the mountain, it looked a lot easier than i ever could have imagined.

Well, not to sound arrogant but I can run about a 3:30-3:40 road marathon and regularly climb peaks around here(NE USA) with relative ease. So I consider myself in reasonably good shape. As form peaks over 14K feet I completely fall apart. I think it depends on your physiology but I find altitude extremely humbling. I think I would have been one of the ones frozen on the ladder if I made it that far. Some people do very well. It is hard to tell until you try it. There are so many things that can go wrong. I have had to turn due to illness and/or fatigue on Island Peak and Lobuche East in Nepal (2 6000meter peaks, turned due to not being able to breath) and on Iztaccihuatl(17K'+,weather) and Orizaba(18K'+, illness) in Mexico last month. So I am extremely impressed by all of them that function at that altitude. 1000' vertical seems like nothing here in New England, but can seem like an eternity at altitude. I am looking forwarding to trying something again in 07.

I thought this was a very good series. I will buy the DVDs when they come out.

 

[Maddy]

It seems that Everest is or is becoming a money maker for outfitters such as Russell Brice.
For many ont he climbers I also wondered what their credentials were. According to Brice's website, you needed both medical clearance and a climbing CV submitted for consideration on the trip.

As Everest becomes more and more of a money maker, it will be interesting to see how this evolves, and how many lives will be lost in the process. Everest is like a "testing ground" now.
At one time it would have been unheard of for a person with "exercise induced" asthma to climb into the death zone with or without oxygen. The same with someone who just had a kidney removed two weeks prior or was sporting the amount of body hardware that Tim is.
The bilateral amputee was probably the best risk because many climbers who have artificial limbs claim that it is easier to climb with the prosthesis.
The second summit attempt included all the physically challenged people except for Mo. They not only had specific issues that would concern any leader and team member but some were downright defient and disrespectful when ordered to abandon their climb immediately because it was placing not only them but all team members at risk. One of these players claims to want to go back next year and already has intentions of defying the leader should the need arise.
Maybe the answer is to pay lots of Sherpas to risk their lives so if the need arises they can get them all out of the death zone in a timely way, If things don't work out so well, will someone like Brice have to pay?
Only one of his climbers required a carry out but the others were obviously in trouble and got down out of the death zone by the skin of their teeth.
It would have been quite a feat to have to haul a 6'3'' climber out of the zone. They had precious little oxygen left when they left the summit leaving no room for error.
I also question the credentials of the climbers and who gave them all such a clean bill of health to climb the mother of all mountains in this day of litigation.
Did we not learn anything with the loss of Fisher and Hall. The pushed and did not abide a turn around time. Unfortunately they paid with their lives as did some of their team. How much are we willing to risk for $$$$$?
I just cannot be politically correct about this and even though it's Christmas, I just knew I would end up speaking my piece, for what it's worth.
"All's well that ends well" and it did end well but for the frostbite and partial amputations. You cannot argue with success...this time.

 

[Dugan]

I'd like to see a follow up show interviewing the main cast members at a later time. Is it really worth shedding body parts? I can see it now - show up at base camp, be told that you'll lose 4 fingertips, do you go anyway?

My take on Tim is that I wouldn't want to hike with him, and expeditions should avoid him regardless of how much money he waves. He used up his second and third chances while flouting Brice's orders several times.

The Sherpas are the heroes of this series. How many would have died without their efforts? Mark Inglis might not have gotten down, not to mention Gerard and Tim. Phurba is an amazingly strong man, physically and mentally. I wonder if he and the other Sherpas are on Everest because it's a good paycheck or because they love the job?

Who wants to tell Inglis that his summit doesn't "count" because he didn't get out under his own power?!

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Peakbagging is the only game where you claim victory at half-time.



Tim

 

[dvbl]

...I'd like to see a follow up show interviewing the main cast members at a later time...

Great point.

A wise man once told me about his friend's brand new luxury house overlooking the bay. Everyone came over the first few weeks and ooh'ed and ah'ed about the house, and it was a great ego boost. But after the novelty wore off, and people stopped coming to visit, the man was left with nothing more than a huge mortgage he could barely handle.

I'm wondering if some of these guys experienced similar reactions: a few weeks of ego-stroking, followed by night after night of lying in bed wondering if it was worth it.

 

[Maddy]

Great point.

A wise man once told me about his friend's brand new luxury house overlooking the bay. Everyone came over the first few weeks and ooh'ed and ah'ed about the house, and it was a great ego boost. But after the novelty wore off, and people stopped coming to visit, the man was left with nothing more than a huge mortgage he could barely handle.

I'm wondering if some of these guys experienced similar reactions: a few weeks of ego-stroking, followed by night after night of lying in bed wondering if it was worth it.

Excellent point. In the past when I read books about mountaineers climbing Everest, K2,Parbat, etc. I would feel inspired because for the most part climbing for them was a way of life. It seems that they were most alive when taking on this challenge, much in the same way as James Kelly, Nikko and Brian Hall were described recently. It was intense but in a very different way.
I do not get the same feeling viewing this series. There are a few folks on the climb that I admire and of course the incredible sherpas. In fact I recorded it but will not save it.
I can't help but feel that ego-stroking and $$$$$ are the big deals here.

 

[JohnL]

I can't help but feel that ego-stroking and $$$$$ are the big deals here.

I’m not so sure that this is any different for professional mountaineers. Many professionals have pushed themselves too far in the vain hope that a summit would help them sell more books or attract a larger audience to slide shows or to garner more lucrative equipment endorsement contracts. In the early days of mountaineering and alpinism, the glory of summiting a plum peak could have them financially set for life. For equipment manufacturers, hitching your product to a star climber meant greater publicity and higher sales. That’s still the case. Today, the money goes to the expedition equippers and the glory is for the weekend warrior. More success means more business. Nothing new here.

There is, however, a difference between the large house on the water and summiting a high peak (or for that matter, completing any significant achievement in your life). If the house burns down, you have nothing. But you will always have the internal satisfaction of having completed a significant achievement.

JohnL

 

[TDawg]

On a bit of a philosophical note: Does anyone else find it interesting that the highest mountain in the world is almost EXACTLY at the limit of the human capacity to climb ? There could be smaller mountains, more easily climbed, or higher mountains which are beyond man's ability. Not my ability, per se, but Everest exists right there at the specific limit of a select group's ability to summit without oxygen. Hmmmm...

Also, I have heard (can't recall where) that if Everest were at a higher latitude, like that of McKinley (63 degrees N) or Vinson Massif (78 degrees S) for example, that it would be past the human capacity to handle the thin air and unclimable. This being due to the atmosphere at those higher latitudes being thinner (vertically) than Everest's, sitting just outside the tropics at 27 degrees north. The idea being that the atmosphere is thickest at the equator and gets thinner going north and south to the poles. So by that thinking, if a mountain was were where Kilimanjaro is (3 degrees S), it could be 30,000 ft+ and still be within the human capacity to climb it!! Just some food for thought.....

On the show, I haven't looked forward to watching a show for a long time (other than football and basball games). I thought it was some of the most badass footage I've seen in a long time. Russell Brice offers some reflections on Everest 2006 on his web site

 

[DougPaul]

Also, I have heard (can't recall where) that if Everest were at a higher latitude, like that of McKinley (63 degrees N) or Vinson Massif (78 degrees S) for example, that it would be past the human capacity to handle the thin air and unclimable. This being due to the atmosphere at those higher latitudes being thinner (vertically) than Everest's, sitting just outside the tropics at 27 degrees north. The idea being that the atmosphere is thickest at the equator and gets thinner going north and south to the poles. So by that thinking, if a mountain was were where Kilimanjaro is (3 degrees S), it could be 30,000 ft+ and still be within the human capacity to climb it!! Just some food for thought.....

This effect is due to the earth's rotation--both the earth and the atmosphere bulge around the equator and are flattened at the poles.

Seasoned climbers (eg Doug Scott), have reported that McKinley feels several thousand feet higher than it would if it were in the Himalayas.

As I mentioned earlier, there is a local Himalayan weather phenomonon during the the climbing season which causes the pressure to be about 10millibars higher than it is the rest of the year. Helps the spring and fall season climbers, but a bit hard on the winter climbers...

Doug

 

[smitty77]

I'm wondering if some of these guys experienced similar reactions: a few weeks of ego-stroking, followed by night after night of lying in bed wondering if it was worth it.

Jon Krakauer said he wished he had never been. It changed his life forever, and not in a good way. I think a fair portion of climbers feel the same.

I found the other program title "Everest ER" equally interesting. Hats off to those folks tending to the wounded at base camp and points lower down.

Smitty