Evolutionary View of Lyme Disease

[grouseking]

I went through this article a couple of times, some interesting things in it. I'm not sure what I believe. But hey, it's always good to see another view on something that is as tough to diagnose and treat as Lyme disease. Basically he speaks of getting rid of all wireless devices, or microwave radiation to help with treatment. What do you all think about this?

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...on-lyme-disease.aspx?e_cid=20120205_SNL_Art_1

 

[Brambor]

basically strong antibiotics kill the lyme disease in the body

the added fluff might or might not be relevant...



and then there is this article

 

[DougPaul]

I went through this article a couple of times, some interesting things in it. I'm not sure what I believe. But hey, it's always good to see another view on something that is as tough to diagnose and treat as Lyme disease. Basically he speaks of getting rid of all wireless devices, or microwave radiation to help with treatment. What do you all think about this?

It sets off my baloney detector...
IMO, the article mixes a bunch of misinformation in with some real information.

He forgot to prescribe (or wear) a tinfoil hat...

Another view isn't much good (or is outright damaging) if it obscures or distracts people from accurate (or scientifically derived) views which can lead people to seek out useless or unproven treatments. Modern snake oil is still snake oil.

Doug

 

[erugs]

I have chronic Lyme and would love to have that not be the case. I've been taking the foulest tasting medication for a year or more, with a few "vacations" in between. It takes all my resolve to take my meds as prescribed.

My opinion for following more traditional treatment methods, while keeping an open mind, is that alternatives have not helped me in the past. A dear friend of mine follows Dr. Mercola's advice, but I think he's a little "out there."

Lyme disease has been around for many, many more years than there were wireless devices and microwaves, etc. The bacteria was even detected in the Ice Man found in the Italian Alps in a recently performed autopsy. From the National Geographic site, "Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint of bacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNA—making the Iceman the earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease."

 

[hikerbrian]

Run away. Fast.

I made it through the first two sections before my bs meter was pegged and I had to stop. I did manage to skim the remaining sections. I don't know what this guy's trying to sell because I didn't make it far enough, but I'd advise you not to buy it. There is a substantial amount of information in that article that is demonstrably wrong, and nearly all of the rest (that I saw) is unsubstantiated conjecture.

Often times these "articles" are written to confuse the general public so that "they don't know what to think" - in that vulnerable state, a subset of the population will seek out someone that they think they can trust to tell them what they should do. Conveniently, there is a name and a face attached to the article. In this case, Dr blahdiblah probably says, "Oh, come right on over to my clinic and we can get you started on my custom therapy that will not only cure your Lyme disease, it'll give you more energy, better hair, and prevent cancer." Snake oil is EXACTLY right. This goes beyone irresponsible to somewhere between immoral and criminal.

 

[peakbagger]

I sure would like to see the peer reviewed studies to support his assertions.

 

[Chip]

I have chronic Lyme and would love to have that not be the case.

My knowledge is limited, but it's my understanding the ONLY way to really knock out chronic Lyme is a long course of in-hospital IV antibiotics. Worked for my sister and there's an old, well known story about a retired General (I think that's what he was) that they attributed the degeneration to age and related illnesses. Someone finally treated him aggressively for chronic Lyme with a longer course of IV antibiotics and he was cured.

From the National Geographic site, "Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint of bacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNA—making the Iceman the earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease."

Lyme, CT should run fast and hard with that one. "See, it's not OUR fault !"

 

[nartreb]

Based on grouseking's summary, I didn't read the article. My BS detector is connected to my temper. I had a hard enough time with the quote from National Geographic. I'm glad I stopped subscribing years ago. They're still a benchmark for photography, but their text just gets more and more simplified, to the point where it becomes arrant nonsense. It's not easy explaining biology in simple language, but surely they can do better than this: "researchers found the genetic footprint of bacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in [Oetzi's] DNA". What's a "genetic footprint"?? I think they mean DNA. DNA is hardly an exotic word - they use it themselves in the same sentence. Researches found DNA from B. burgdorferi where? "in [Oetzi's] DNA". I doubt it. What they mean (my best guess) is that they found DNA sequences within tissues in his *body* (not within *his* DNA) that match the sequence for B. Burgdorferi.

However, I found this from a rather more scientifically literate source:
http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/10/the_iceman_genome_cometh.html

"Zink’s team has found hints that he was infected with Borrelia burgdorferi, the bacterium that causes lyme disease, however Zink says this conclusion is preliminary.... Zink says the analysis of Ötzi’s microbiome could keep his team busy for another year."

So we may not get details on what these hints were, until fall of 2012.

 

[DougPaul]

From the National Geographic site, "Perhaps most surprising, researchers found the genetic footprint of bacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in his DNA—making the Iceman the earliest known human infected by the bug that causes Lyme disease."

(Nartreb's comments appear to be more accurate)

Lyme, CT should run fast and hard with that one. "See, it's not OUR fault !"

Does this mean that we should blame the Iceman (Oetzi) instead?

(No, the bacteria is just a result of evolution in action... He was just another victim. The disease were just [re]identified in Lyme CT.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Based on grouseking's summary, I didn't read the article. My BS detector is connected to my temper.

Agreed--I read it simply so I could make more specific comments.

<soapbox on>
People push this kind of crap so they can make money, oppose scientific findings (eg cigarette companies vs evidence that smoking causes cancer), push political agendas, are simply misguided, etc. There is a general guideline in science: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Such evidence is generally vetted through peer review and replication at other sites. This article is unsubstantiated claims with no meaningful evidence behind them.

The openness and breadth of the internet is a fertile ground for such purveyors of baloney. And unfortunately some percentage of readers are willing to believe the crap.
<soapbox off>

Doug

 

[erugs]

My knowledge is limited, but it's my understanding the ONLY way to really knock out chronic Lyme is a long course of in-hospital IV antibiotics. Worked for my sister and there's an old, well known story about a retired General (I think that's what he was) that they attributed the degeneration to age and related illnesses. Someone finally treated him aggressively for chronic Lyme with a longer course of IV antibiotics and he was cured.

My physician is one recommended by the Manchester, NH Lyme support group leader and considered to be "Lyme Literate" -- a term I dislike, but is commonly used in talking about Lyme. On a check of my blood levels for the disease after ongoing treatment, the count has gone down instead of up. We're going to be discussing other options for treatment in April. Until then, I have to take this wonderful medication that smells like vanilla but tastes like old pennies while on it, and another antibiotic as a boost two days a week that causes yeast problems. Some patients do have IV treatment, which can also be done on an outpatient basis, but because the device is in place on your arm you are limited in what you can do. Heavy lifting is out, bumping into trees would probably not be allowed, no butt sliding, etc.

 

[daxs]

IV antibiotics can be done on an outpatient basis. I can't imagine any insurance would pay for 30 days of hospitaliztion just to get IV antibiotics than can be infused over 30-60 minutes.

You get a PICC line put in (peripherally inserted central catheter) This IV is threaded from a vein in your arm up to a large vein outside of the right ventricle. The line stays in the entire time but you need dressing changes. You get the antibiotics once daily for about 30 days. My patient was treated with ceftriaxone. He was given the option of going to the infectious disease specialsits office daily for the infusion or having it done at home. He finished his IV therapy about 4 months ago and is feeling great. He had failed oral antibiotics 2x and really had no other choice for treatment. The IV will prevent you from doing some activities but only short term

 

[erugs]

Based on grouseking's summary, I didn't read the article. My BS detector is connected to my temper. I had a hard enough time with the quote from National Geographic. I'm glad I stopped subscribing years ago. They're still a benchmark for photography, but their text just gets more and more simplified, to the point where it becomes arrant nonsense. It's not easy explaining biology in simple language, but surely they can do better than this: "researchers found the genetic footprint of bacteria known as Borrelia burgdorferi in [Oetzi's] DNA". What's a "genetic footprint"?? I think they mean DNA. DNA is hardly an exotic word - they use it themselves in the same sentence. Researches found DNA from B. burgdorferi where? "in [Oetzi's] DNA". I doubt it. What they mean (my best guess) is that they found DNA sequences within tissues in his *body* (not within *his* DNA) that match the sequence for B. Burgdorferi.

However, I found this from a rather more scientifically literate source:
http://blogs.nature.com/news/2011/10/the_iceman_genome_cometh.html

"Zink’s team has found hints that he was infected with Borrelia burgdorferi, the bacterium that causes lyme disease, however Zink says this conclusion is preliminary.... Zink says the analysis of Ötzi’s microbiome could keep his team busy for another year."

So we may not get details on what these hints were, until fall of 2012.

I agree with the idea that National Geographic is dumbed down from how a scientific journal would be written, but perhaps that is so a greater population would have the incentive to read it. With my writer's/editor's eye, perhaps the author of the article had seen DNA too many times within the piece and wanted a little diversity?

I do like the other link you found and it was certainly readable. But the whole idea of DNA and finding out what came from where is so beyond my comprehension, as are many other things. I am on a list to receive a lot of scientific information on Lyme and Lyme-like diseases and studies, and 99% of it is uncomprehendable to me. As I have explained to a friend who tends to be verbose on a topic, "Give me the Reader's Digest version first. Then when I'm ready, I'll want more data."

I look forward to more good progress on detection and treatment.

 

[Brambor]

It could be worse. Have you read Popular Science Magazine?

I agree with the idea that National Geographic is dumbed down from how a scientific journal would be written, but perhaps that is so a greater population would have the incentive to read it. With my writer's/editor's eye, perhaps the author of the article had seen DNA too many times within the piece and wanted a little diversity?

I do like the other link you found and it was certainly readable. But the whole idea of DNA and finding out what came from where is so beyond my comprehension, as are many other things. I am on a list to receive a lot of scientific information on Lyme and Lyme-like diseases and studies, and 99% of it is uncomprehendable to me. As I have explained to a friend who tends to be verbose on a topic, "Give me the Reader's Digest version first. Then when I'm ready, I'll want more data."

I look forward to more good progress on detection and treatment.

 

[Puck]

Not sure why the Iceman reminds me of Wes Welker this past weekend.


Serioulsy, the Mercola piece is interesting from a medical sociology viewpoint...Mercola is mainly read by people who have rejected science based medicine. They don't care if there are peer reviewed citations. Many have had a bad turn in the barrel with modern biomedicine and have rejected it altogether. Yet they will believe some of the ahlf baked science sounding explanations. (bacteria do swap DNA in the form of a plasmids with each other but not with thier host...like a virus)

What I find interesting is how some of these diseases explode on the scene causing high mortality in the host popluation then calms down and lives with the host. DOn't know if we will see that with lyme or not during our life time.

 

[Dana]

It sets off my baloney detector...
IMO, the article mixes a bunch of misinformation in with some real information.

He forgot to prescribe (or wear) a tinfoil hat...

He comes close though:

Dr. Klinghardt recommends shielding your home with a graphite paint called Y Shield outside, and use special silver-coated cloth for your curtains. These measures will compromise your ability to receive cell phone calls, so depending on your situation, you may opt to shield just your bedroom, or shield your entire home and just use a landline.

All cordless telephones are removed, and patients are instructed to turn off all the fuses at night, until they have recovered from Lyme disease.

Next, the emotional component of the disease is addressed using Energy Psychology tools, including psychokinesiology (PK) which is similar to the Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT), but more refined and advanced...

Good Friday evening entertainment...

 

[grouseking]

I guess the author should have said de-evolutionary view of Lyme disease. I am all about seeing new views and attempting to understand new perspectives on certain things such as this, although some of his explanations sound kind of kooky.

This is getting a little off topic to hiking....but....I have epilepsy and am kind of stuck taking some pretty heavy duty meds for the rest of my life. But there is something called EEG neurofeedback. From my limited understanding, it sounds like you somehow train your brain waves so you can either reduce or possibly eliminate your seizures, which in turn could mean you can either stop taking meds, or reduce your dosage. To me, that sounds like a fantastic idea. But as usual I get conflicting stories....one of my docs who is all about the science says its a bunch of BS, while another, whom I trust, says, it has had some success. Ya know, some success, just like meds...they are successful only part of the time.

I think it has to do with how you are feeling mentally about something. If you have a positive attitude, and believe in the treatment, it may seem like it is working. Which might be the case with the Lyme disease treatment, and possibly the neurofeedback.