February Slide trip for Boy scouts?

[Sean Molloy]

I'm thinking about leading six scouts (12-14) on a single nighter on Slide (Catskills) Feb 20th. This would be my first winter backpack. I've led scouts on several fall/summer treks. The scouts are used to winter camping, but not in back country. Am I nuts?

Sean

 

[coldfeet]

I'd say go to Harriman State Park and try that first. You could make it as long or a short as you want. As a parent of a scout i want to know if the leaders already did it recently. does your troop go winter camping, our long island troop goes in Feb to Onteora off of exit 96 and they have to be over 13, my son can't go yet. Good luck.

 

[JackH]

scouts

Sean- maybe a little nuts. But no, I work with a Scout troop and we camp every month during winter. We just went this weekend and the temps went down to 12 degrees and all the kids (22) did fine. We always have a gear check for new campers and usually go to places where we can get kids out fast if we have too. The troop camps a lot and the boys all have zero degree bags and quickly learn how to layer and cook in the woods. Winter camping is now the perfered choice.

 

[Panama Jack]

Only you know

Sean,

Only you know your own confidence level. My hesitation would be that it is YOUR first winter trip. I am in Boston and most familiar with the whites so I am not knowledgeable of Slide at all. Gaining alot of altitude makes people sweat no matter what the ambient temperature. Learning how to get dry and stay dry is always my weakest skill in winter and a dangerous deficit to realize miles in and 100's of feet up.

I found subtleties in winter camping that never crossed my mind, and I am an over analyzer.

Maybe if you can scoot out for a night on a similar hike before taking on the responsibility of the kids you can decide for yourself if you are nuts.

Nuts or not, thank you for being up for it. Its tough to find people these days willing to show kids the back country and how beautiful it is.

PJ

 

[Sean Molloy]

Thanks, guys. My troop winter camps as well (Klondike is this weekend.) I originally chose Harriman, but there is almost no snow there so far and we want to both snowshoe and build snow shelters.

My real concern is the terrain. It's either 3.9 miles or 2.8 miles to the top from the road (depending on route) with 1700 feet of climb. We could do it as a dayhike in summer easily. But, in winter....?

 

[askus3]

Have you thought of hiking to the site of the old Denning Shelter on the Neversink? You will then get the winter camping experience at amuch lower altitude and be only an easy mile plus from your car if you need to get back there. Water is easily obtainable in the Neversink and then make Slide a day hike. This way you are not camping at a high elevation but you get to climb a mountain with snowshoes. Also, since it is Presidents Weekend, and you have the extra day, you can climb Peekamoose & Table the second day if things are going well and the boys want another challenge.

 

[jbreen]

Besides the other comments, if you take the Wittenberg-Slide trail up, it's pretty much a continual uphill slog - this may be nice for snowshoing, but it will need about a foot of snow to cover the rocks. Curtis-Ormsby is more interesting with some views, but it adds some distance.
The only place to camp on Slide is the summit near the fire tower foundation or around by the Burroughs plaque. Neither is friendly to others who may be out that day.

I would hike something I know and bring a leader with winter experience.

Jim

 

[paul ron]

Why don't you look up a lean-to close to the parking area like the ones on either side of Balsam Mountain's trails?

ALSO it's a good idea to let the local ranger in the area know you are out with the group. Maybe some here can give you a phone number to call? Rangers can offer some good tips and can keep a special eye on you guys in case you need help or advice.

Have fun!

 

[tonycc]

I've been a scout leader for a lot of years. I've moved up with my son from troop tail gate camping, to venture patrol activities to currently leading a venture crew. Slide would certainly be doable, but it could quite a challenge depending on the conditions. It sounds like a perfect introduction to winter backcountry treking! I second the thank you from Panama Jack.

A couple of suggestions considering that the boys are on the young side for this:
- The BSA Guide To Safe Scouting has some really good rules and guidelines in it. Some of it should be reviewed by all participants.
- The group always stays together.
- Do turn around or shorten the trip if you realize the hike is too ambitious or the conditions too hazardous for some or all participants. The only goal you have to achieve is the parking lot.
- Use the old jeep trail from the Rt 47 parking lot. Start on the Phoenicia-East Branch Trail (Yellow Markers) abour 1/2 mile to jeep road. Shortly you will hit the Burroughs Range Trail (Red Markers). This is a nice wide trail without too many obstacles, perfect for sleds if the snow is deep enough.
- Take your time on the climb, stop frequently. Make sure everyone has a chance to make adjustments. Within the first half mile I seem to always either have to fix a hot spot, or check and retighten my sled load, take off extra clothing, etc. Everytime, even if I don't have too.
- If I remember correctly there are few campsites along the trail up to Slide. There is some great camping on the far side of Slide. However, the trail is steep with ladders, rock ledges and potential ice, it might be treacherous without crampons. Save it for the next winter trip.
- If you can, take a day trip to Slide mountain before the group trip to check out the trail and determine where you will camp. This also gives you the chance to truly judge the hike and work out all of the logistics.
- Contact the rangers at the Ranger HQ (845) 657-6162. Groups over 9 people are required to have a permit. Getting a permit and leaving a trip plan with them is a good idea for all groups, or so they tell me. Also, find out the regulations for winter camping and they can tell you where a good site is.
- Consider ditching the snow shelters. Thay take a lot of time, make you very wet (which means extra dry clothes), and can damage the underlying vegetation if the snow isn't very deep.

Have fun and be safe,
Tony

 

[John Graham]

I led a beginners winter backpack over Hunter Mt, camping near the Devil's Acre lean-to, which has water year round due to an artesian spring. We made our approach up the old fire road, making a side trip out to the Colonel's Chair at the top of the Hunter Mt ski lift, the boys would get a kick out of that. The whole loop was just over eight miles, with most of it on easy trail. Camping right around the lean-to is restricted, so you have to move a fair distance away to be legal. The nice thing is that from Devil's Acre, you could quickly bail out if you had to down the Devils Path. If you were feeling really ambitious, you could make the side trip to South West Hunter before descending, but my group of adults only wanted to get down, as it is a lot colder up there.

 

[Jay H]

I presume you know that any group larger than 10 requires a permit (for overnight stays, not dayhiking). As fa as camping goes, the marked campsites on Denning is nice (the leanto is now further up the trail but there are regular campsites there). Of course this requires you to cross the neversink on that infamous 40ft log.

Camping further up, one could camp between Cornell and Slide, would be more sheltered and offer a larger site than say on the summit of Slide itself. Just be careful. I second the suggestion that if you have a spare weekend, go out and scout the trail or so, it'll give you XP in backcountry winter camping and it'll also be a chance to find good sites and stuff.

Jay

 

[Nessmuk]

I'm thinking about leading six scouts (12-14) on a single nighter on Slide (Catskills) Feb 20th. This would be my first winter backpack. I've led scouts on several fall/summer treks. The scouts are used to winter camping, but not in back country. Am I nuts?

Sean

Sean, I am not familiar with your area, but have led many Adirondack trips with scouts. You already have seen lots of ideas here. I have a couple more hints. First, regardless of the conditions, if there is any snow at all (or rain heaven forbid) then the boys will get wet. It's the nature of things, boys and snow = wet = cold. Plan for that and all it implies regarding what you take and how you prepare.

Second, make sure what they take is secure and travels well. For example, do not allow dangling sleeping bags from packs - bungee cords are a common horrible idea to tie bags to packs, use cord instead and learn to tie a trucker's hitch. Line the inside of packs and the inside of sleeping bag stuff sacks with plastic garbage bags. If you use plastic sleds (pulks), which are a good idea, make sure you keep the weight centered low, practice lashing items inside so that you do not deform the sled's bottom which will cause it to continuously tip over. Learn how to attach the tow lines or poles securely and comfortably.

Then get with your assistant adult leader and make sure you share ideas and are clear of the plans in advance, most especially the contingency plans. Know that in winter conditions everything will take twice as long as you have budgeted. Bring some extra socks and mittens.

Finally, remember the trip is for the boys' benefit so do your best to make it safe and fun while keeping it adventuresome!

 

[Halite]

I would caution against Slide as a destination since you would have to cross the river from the trail head without a bridge. There is a plaque at the Slide trailhead in memory of a boy scout who died when he slipped under the ice and drowned during a Scout outing a few years back. The Neversink near the old Denning leanto would pose similar problems with a difficult/dangerous river crossing.

I would second John Graham's suggestion regarding Hunter. Some of the approaches are not too steep and relatively smooth, which would help a lot if your group is not equipped with crampons.

 

[imarchant]

Lot's of good advice here. I recommend staying at a lean-to for an overnight. Save the building of snow shelters for a local camp where there is a quick escape to a warm-up area. As Nessmuk said they will get wet doing this activity.

Our troop has hiked up over Overlook mountain, starting at the Meads Mountain Road trailhead and stayed at the Echo Lake Leanto and returned to the trailhead. This is an easier route for a first winter backpack. It is about 4 miles each direction up an old jeep trail. As a bonus the views from the firetower can be spectacular and the boys will enjoy exploring the old hotel ruins.

Another time we started at the Platte Clove Rd trailhead spent the 1st night at the Devil's Tombstone leanto and continued to Overlook, spent 2nd night near ruins, down to Meads Mountain Road trailhead following morning. We did this in early spring when there was lots of ice left on the ground. The distances were short.

My concern with the Slide trip is more with the trailhead. The road leading to the trailhead is steep and at a high elevation. If you need to make an early departure due to weather the trailhead it's self could be snowed in. The hike up Slide itself is not very hard but these boy's are on the young side. We usually wait till the boys are at least 13 or 14 before trying this type of trip.

You know your own and your boys cabablities best, so use your judgement. Good luck on what ever you plan. Welcome to VFFT!

 

[Bob Smith]

Sean, As another option (that we use with younger scouts) we make reservation with http://www.rvwbsa.org/content.asp?contentid=18
They have cabins and lean-to's. We than snowshoe one of the many high peaks. The camp gets its name from The Blackdome Range (Thomas Cole, Blackdome, Blackhead Mt's) They are all over 3500' . The scouts can tent outside and if conditions turn bad, they have the option to crawl into the cabin. 12 & 13 year olds are a little young for wilderness winter camping but thats my opinion.

 

[imarchant]

Sean, As another option (that we use with younger scouts) we make reservation with http://www.rvwbsa.org/content.asp?contentid=18
They have cabins and lean-to's. We than snowshoe one of the many high peaks. The camp gets its name from The Blackdome Range (Thomas Cole, Blackdome, Blackhead Mt's) They are all over 3500' . The scouts can tent outside and if conditions turn bad, they have the option to crawl into the cabin. 12 & 13 year olds are a little young for wilderness winter camping but thats my opinion.

Trimount is a nice camp. I doubt you will be able to get any cabins. We tried reserving for the following weekend, but the have been booked long ago. I think you probably need to book many months in advance. Leantos may be available.

 

[TomEske]

Wow

This is a great thread. I just got back from balmy Minnesota and am catching up. I am SO heartened to see so many Scouters throwing in their two cents, and great suggestions by all. I knew we had a few Scouters/Scout parents here, but not quite this many. For myself, I have been in Scouting for 30+ years, and am a Scoutmaster here in the Catskills.
Anyway, my 2 cents. I second the suggestion for Trimount. No, at this point you will NOT get a reservation for a cabin (you MIGHT be able to get the Delaware campsite, which is a leanto site that should handle up to 40 or so). However, you did say you wanted a winter BACKPACK. You can use Trimount for this and keep it short. Take the Yellow trail up the mountain. Near the highest elevation that trail hits, it will turn southeast. Hike that direction until you meet the Orange trail. At this point you can camp, with nice views, or follow the orange to another trail, such as the red, to go to the Dead Horse shelter on further on to the Juniper outpost. You also have the option of turning left (northeast) and bushwhacking right up Thomas Cole. Whatever you choose, you have the opportunity of a bail out. Head down hill to the main camp and Herb will fix you up (the Dining hall is always available in an emergency). Having a camp for support can be invaluable on your fist winter trip as a leader. The ranger in camp is old and hobbles around, but don't let that decieve you, he knows his stuff. The camp has 500 acres to enjoy and use.
Trimount also has snowshoes available for rent (cheap, I think a few bucks a day, the rental fees just cover repair/maintainence), ice skates, etc.
If you have any further questions, need help making arrangements, or whatever, just email me direct.
[email protected]
We are having a Klondike derby/family day/winterfest at Trimount this coming Saturday (1/29)if you want to come and check it out you will be welcomed.
Happy Hiking,
Tom

 

[Ed B]

Why carry a pack?

There have been lots of great ideas in these replies. I have just one more suggestion for you to consider.

Your scouts would have an easier time with some of the routes suggested with equipment sleds (ski pulks) rather than back packs. I have posted a helpful booklet at www.skipulk.com that includes several different designs. Building these sleds during preliminary troop meetings can be half the fun.

The greatest thing about a ski pulk is that the minute you stop to catch your breath you are immediately at rest since the load is on the snow and not your back. Enjoy the snow- Ed B