Fill in your divots!

[woodsxc]

Dear god.

Honestly, if your snowshoes are functional, then they should prevent you from falling, slipping, or sliding in a posthole. Postholes are caused by someone barebooting in soft snow. Therefore, the hole is only the size of a boot. If your snowshoe can fit into a boot-sized hole, you've been cheated.

You know what though? Let's do it! But hey, let's not stop with regulating footwear. Let's mandate specific backpacks, jackets, energy bars, water bottles, and sunglasses. You guys do realize that we're talking about mountains, yes? If you can't deal with a bump (or inverted bump, in the case of a posthole) then you really don't have the right attitude for this game. The whole point of climbing a mountain is to overcome or at least face a challenge (we can do the "conquering a mountain vs mountain conquering you" debate later).

Furthermore, I'm not sure which park service you guys are thinking of that has money to burn for new signs at every trailhead and rangers patrolling winter peaks handing out fines for HWS, Hiking Without Snowshoes. It's not the NPS that I know. Nor is it a state park agency. You want to pay for signs? Fine. But I'm going to use my own judgment, not yours, when deciding what to wear on the mountain.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Maybe it's already been stated, but this rule was written because the ADK trails get a lot more skiers than the Whites, or at least that has been my impression so far.

It might be that skiers in the ADK's have a more influential lobby than those in the Whites.

 

[erugs]

I really enjoyed reading this thread. I'm not fond of post holes either but I don't actually know of anyone in snowshoes ever getting hurt by one.

Well it's almost happened. Just yesterday. We were hiking down from Zeta Pass and there were more and more postholes than there had been on our way up to S. Carter, but still not many in comparison to what I've seen other times. Brian was making good time ahead of me until the front of his snowshoe dipped into a posthole. It sent him flying and pulled the snowshoe off his foot. We were glad he landed on the trail and not on the steeps next to the trail where he would have landed in the raging stream! Startling, for sure for him, and I tried hard not to chuckle as he looked like a horse rider who had been thrown because the horse let air out of his belly and the saddle flipped.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

... I tried hard not to chuckle as he looked like a horse rider who had been thrown because the horse let air out of his belly and the saddle flipped.

I'd like to know if you were successful in your efforts to stiffle a chuckle

 

[erugs]

I'd like to know if you were successful in your efforts to stiffle a chuckle

No, of course not. And I think he's wondering if I am going to post the photo I took.

 

[TrishandAlex]

I was almost to the lookout on the ridge when I met the fellow with the MSRs. I gave him a friendly greeting and without a 'hello' I got back a tirade about how I was destroying the trail and making postholes he would trip on etc. etc. etc. None of it was true. In fact the MSRs were tearing up the trail more than my crampons. When I saw where the conversation was going I simply said 'have a good day' and walked on...... Quite frankly, the whole incident which wasn't at all necessary kind of spoiled the day.

That man's attitude was the epitome of arrogance. I'm sorry he felt it was his right to say anything other than "hello, what a nice day we're having."

 

[erugs]

That man's attitude was the epitome of arrogance. I'm sorry he felt it was his right to say anything other than "hello, what a nice day we're having."

Even if he had said, "Yes, it's a nice day to be out. Wow, it must be uncomfortable to be post-holing today. Be careful you don't hurt your leg." that could have gotten a point across without being nasty.

 

[Little Rickie]

It unsafe to walk down hill wearing snow shoes after people have been sliding down on their butts.

There should be a law against that.

I mean about walking down hill in snow shoes.

 

[TrishandAlex]

It unsafe to walk down hill wearing snow shoes after people have been sliding down on their butts.

Oops. The girls and I just rendered Lonesome Lake Trail hazardous.

 

[sierra]

It's true, in those areas you won't have the ranger sending you back or ticketing you, but I would be willing to bet (and maybe even more so in the Adirondacks) that you will run into those who consider it their right to lecture you about wearing snowshoes.

A number of years ago we had a cold but low snow winter. I got to the Cannon trailhead and found it packed out like a sidewalk. I put my snowshoes back in the car and put on my crampons. They hardly left a trace. Ahead of me there was someone with MSRs and another person with Stableicers. I was almost to the lookout on the ridge when I met the fellow with the MSRs. I gave him a friendly greeting and without a 'hello' I got back a tirade about how I was destroying the trail and making postholes he would trip on etc. etc. etc. None of it was true. In fact the MSRs were tearing up the trail more than my crampons. When I saw where the conversation was going I simply said 'have a good day' and walked on. A bit later I met the guy with the Stableicers. Only he had his snowshoes on. I guess he had been intimidated into putting them on. On my way back I noticed that on the steep section he had replaced the snowshoes with the Stableicers again.

Quite frankly, the whole incident which wasn't at all necessary kind of spoiled the day.

Really, its not fair at all, why cant these arrogant, rightous loudmouths who somehow think they have the right to tell people what to do, find me?

 

[Stash]

Does that former star of The Man From U.N.C.L.E need to get involved here to ensure anyone harmed by postholes, monorails, butt-slide marks or any other hazardous conditions is appropriately compensated?

 

[erugs]

Does that former star of The Man From U.N.C.L.E need to get involved here to ensure anyone harmed by postholes, monorails, butt-slide marks or any other hazardous conditions is appropriately compensated?

We can use all those hidden cameras we've spotted at certain trailheads. This is certainly a more urgent issue!

 

[Tom Rankin]

Honestly, if your snowshoes are functional, then they should prevent you from falling, slipping, or sliding in a posthole. Postholes are caused by someone barebooting in soft snow. Therefore, the hole is only the size of a boot. If your snowshoe can fit into a boot-sized hole, you've been cheated.

I don't mind a posthole every 500'. But I came across huge sections of post-holed trails this winter, where it looked like the trail had been shredded. I had 2 choices. Either walk thru the mine field, or go around. Either choice would make that section of trail a lot more difficult. Was it THAT difficult? No, of course not. But could this situation have been avoided? YES.

Sometimes I marvel at the strength and perseverance of post-holers. If you can post hole all the way to the top of a steep mountain, you're a better person than I am!

 

[DSettahr]

As Tom mentioned, the occasional post hole is not the issue. I see post holing pretty often in the Adirondacks, and indeed, it usually causes me no harm (other than wincing at all the extra energy the postholer must've expended!).

The issue is when the trail is soft, and you have hordes of people hiking on it without snowshoes. When the trail hardens, it becomes a horrendous (and dangerous) mess. There are trails that it happens on- Baker Mountain, in Saranac Lake, is frequently an example of this. I have been up this mountain numerous times when wearing snowshoes was a dangerous prospect, due to all the twisted lumpy snow that had frozen in place after a cold night.

That being said, I've also encountered trails that were improperly broken out by snowshoers- and were also a frozen, lumpy, and dangerous mess!

 

[sierra]

The truth of the matter is that alot of postholers just do not know any better as they are neophytes. I remember postholing in my first winter hikes to this day, it was horrible and taxing. I also remember buying snowshoes soon after, sometimes self education is the only way to learn. That being said, if I do encounter a postholer in the throngs of a epic posthole outing, I give them a break and think of my early days and how it would have been a drag to have someone denegrate me, as Im trying to learn the ropes so to speak.

 

[erugs]

The truth of the matter is that alot of postholers just do not know any better as they are neophytes. I remember postholing in my first winter hikes to this day, it was horrible and taxing. I also remember buying snowshoes soon after, sometimes self education is the only way to learn. That being said, if I do encounter a postholer in the throngs of a epic posthole outing, I give them a break and think of my early days and how it would have been a drag to have someone denegrate me, as Im trying to learn the ropes so to speak.

And I, too, was one once. (Well, maybe thrice, before I learned my lesson.) Black and blue shins hurt! Plunging downhill while held in a post hole made me think about wrenched knees! I'm a convert. It was a no-brainer.

 

[Little Rickie]

I've also encountered trails that were improperly broken out by snowshoers- and were also a frozen, lumpy, and dangerous mess!

That should be illegle too. People should be trained and licensed before they can walk on public land in snow shoes. The fees from this can offset rescue costs.

I hate it when people make the trails muddy and I have to walk through it so I don't add to errosion of the trail. Everyone should be required to walk through mud.

 

[Paradox]

Before becoming a post-hole is it a pre-hole?

What kind of hole is a sitz-mark?

Post-holier than thou.

One should not go postal over a posthole!

 

[Stash]

One should not go postal over a posthole!

I have a theory on that. Or is it a post-ulate?

 

[forestgnome]

MSR-type snowshoes DO NOT create a perfect surface for all others who follow. Tubbs-style shoes do not fit in the narrow track, making the trail unusable for those of us who use snowshoes that actually function well in deep snow. Skinny MSR tracks are worse than post holes.

MSRs are great on a packed trail but they are weak in deep pow. Not everyone who uses the trail is a peakbagger, interested only in going to the summit and back and never leaving the same old trail. Some people enjoy using the trail to gain access to higher elevations and then explore.

The forest and trails do not belong to peakbaggers who own MSRs.

My Tubbs are so big that they cruise right over a heavily postholed trail. No problems. If MSRs can't handle postholes, maybe they are too small.

The only condition on a trail I can't handle is a skinny MSR track. That's when I bare-boot and carry my Tubbs until I go off trail. If conditions are such that I'm postholing I stop because postholing is not enjoyable. I try another trail. I'm often limited to trails that don't lead to peakbagger destinations; trails that don't see MSRs.

My microspikes handle sheer ice. My snowshoes handle deep pow. I can climb mountains off trail through thick spruce blodowns. I can cruise right over postholed trails. The only condition that sucks is a skinny MSR track.

The liberty to wear whatever snowshoes we want, or to wear none at all, trumps the benefit that a certain group would gain by making yet another prohibition.

Winter hiking was so much better before MSRs. I would wear my snowshoes no matter how hard the trail was packed. It requires less energy because even a slight slip of the foot makes a difference over a long hike. Those were the days.

I don't propose prohibiting MSRs. I accept reality. Skinny tracks are here to stay, at least for a while. Keep New Hampshire free. Wear what you want.