Flagging on bushwacks

[Pig Pen]

I was poking around up on Mt. Hitchcock when I came upon some red flagging on the way up Middle Peak from West Peak. The practice of putting up flagging while bushwacking is widely condemned and I don't need to add to that here. I would like to know what people are trying to accomplish by putting up flagging on bushwacks. The two reasons I can think of are 1:To find their way back out, and 2:To help other hikers find their way somewhere. I would contend that these are both bad reasons for the practice. For reason 1 I would humbly suggest that before doing fairly major bushwacks like the Hitchcocks a person should be confident in their navigation skills. Confident enough so that they are sure they can find their way out with a map and compass, because it would not be hard to lose the flagging. Reason 2 is not that good either. If I'm wandering around in the woods and unexpectedly find flagging, I have no idea where it leads or why it is there. For these reasons I would ignore it and keep following my compass. Oops, I said I would not contribute to the wide condemnation of flagging. Anyway, I returned to the car with a large quantity of red tape in my pockets. I would like to hear some thoughts from people who do put up flagging when they bushwack and why they do it.

 

[Jay H]

Sometimes they are also done by hunters, but yeah, it's hard to differentiate sometimes what is official and what is just done by users.

Other times it's like every tree has some ribbon on it , it must be confusing..

Jay

 

[Mad Townie]

Any chance it might have been put up by a surveyor? Having worked in that field a while ago, I know that we often used flagging to mark points.

If that's the case, you're really messing them up by removing it. But if it's not, forget what I said.

 

[spencer]

As a researcher, if I put flagging up and return to my site to find that someone has removed it, I would have some unfriendly words for that individual.

that being said, I agree it is not nice or good to flag bushwhack hiking routes.

However, think about it before you just rip it down. It may not be your place to do so. It's not our land where we find the flagging... You never know who put it there and why.

spencer

 

[Grumpy]

It's not simple . . .

Mad Townie’s and spencer's remarks lay out the complicating factor in the flagging business.

While despising litter I am reluctant to remove anything that has been deliberately placed. Still, I agree with those who believe that flagging is litter if it is left fluttering in the wind after it has served its purpose, and therein lies the rub. Lacking telepathic capacity, it usually is impossible for me to know just why the flagging was tied up there in the first place, and so it is presumptious to assume its purpose is illegitimate or has been served. Removing legitimately placed and still purposeful flagging can be regarded, properly, as vandalism.

So I am very careful about taking it upon myself to remove the stuff.

Also, as a side note, I do not necessarily object to hikers marking their back trail on a bushwhack, so long as they follow the route on their return trip and meticulously collect the flagging as they go.

G.

 

[carole]

litter

I have seen flagging (at least in the Whites) on trails where trail work is being marked (ex: clear waterbar, put in steps, brushout, etc.). I would think if the flagging is important and not to be removed it should be written on stating so, otherwise I would take it down.

 

[Warren]

Pete Hickey should chime in on this, but just as we are not supposed to be clearing blow down from trails or doing trail work I don't think flagging should be removed either.

Not that I like the stuff, but I'd bet the the management of an area would prefer us not to instead of removing flagging that is still there for an official reason.

 

[Pig Pen]

Just to clarify, I doubt if there is any surveying or hunting going on on the west slope of Mt. Hitchcock. The north peak had some kind of installation on it but the flagging was nowhere near there. It was pretty obvious to me that this was left by a hiker. I rarely remove flagging. This case just seemed ridiculus to me.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Pete Hickey should chime in on this, but just as we are not supposed to be clearing blow down from trails or doing trail work I don't think flagging should be removed either.

That isn't my way of thinking. Remove it whenever you see it..... sort of...

I think that most people use judgement, and that seems to have been working out better than any set of rules could. At least that has been my experience..

When we flagged Redfield, we used official DEC flagging tape... which anyone can get at WallMart. It pretty much didn't get removed. I think that is because people hiking knew it was official... How they knew, I don't know, but they knew. Gonna take it all down in a few weeks.

When we put in the flagging, we said, "Someone may take this all down next week." If someone had, and I saw them, I wouldn't have complained. I would have waited until they passed, and put up some more...

The flagging after Floyd going towards Allen. ASame kind of thing.

Clearing blowdown on the Wallface pond trail the other day, we removed some flagging.

Those of you who wrote to Grace, may have sent her flagging you collected on a climb. She told me once that she was collecting a big ball of the stuff, and urged people to send her any that they find.

 

[Ridgerunner]

Criminal

Flagging is unwaranted. If you are a researcher or a surveyor, you got a budget right ? So get a GPS and flag electronically, i.e. use way points.

 

[Rick]

It coulda been worse!!!!!
I'd rather see flagging rather than the Blazings done with an axe or hatchet as was the case on Street & Nye about 10 years ago. IIRC (This was discussed on Pete Hickey's 46er maillist) it was a fella that had tried to get Street & Nye several times in winter conditions and failed, so he decided to put axe marks on trees to find his way.

 

[Puma concolor]

I don't much see the point in flagging a route for hiking purposes, but it also doesn't bother me at all. So what .... a few pieces of red tape or yarn in the middle of nowhere. I'd rather see someone unconfident in their route finding abilities place a few pieces of tape along the route than get lost on a bushwhack and have a search and rescue initiated on their behalf. Also, it is generally pretty easy to tell the difference between official and unofficial flagging. Like mavs said, it's pretty much common sense.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I'd rather see flagging rather than the Blazings

Oh yeah.. Also the blazing that was done on the iroquois col path to Marshall, or the Calkins Brook path... Both were well blazed (and flagged) ilegally, and herd paths developed quickly.

We'll see it again.

 

[Grumpy]

Another perspective . . .

For another perspective on the “flagging” question, go over to the VFTT General Backcountry forum and find a thread titled “skull on Kancamagus,” started 5/23/04 by RoySwkr. Scroll down to the 7th post (6th reply) in the thread, by post’r boy, and read it.

Imagine, then, some conscientious soul coming along, spotting that stuff sack “flag” hanging there and . . . before the search party got back to the spot.

Unusual and (we hope) extremely rare circumstance, of course. But it does underscore the idea that we ought to really know what we’re about before disturbing or removing markers that appear to have been deliberately placed.

G.

 

[David Metsky]

post'r boy, read Grumpy's post again. He said that people should be careful about removing even what looks like useless flagging because they don't know if it was put there for a real purpose. And for an example of a real important use, he cited your use of a stuffsack to mark the skull.

He was using you as a good example, not attacking you.

Everyone is in agreement here, no need to yell or swear at one another.

-dave-

 

[Peakbagr]

If the flagging is on State Land, it probably shouldn't be there.
We did a bushwack to an ADK100 peak on private land this past weekend. It was thick on top and there were numerous bumps. Some discreet orange flagging identified the summit and saved us flailing around the top looking for another high spot.

 

[Mountainhound]

ridge runner you are not completly correct about what all survayers do flagging is quit nesisarry at times like for logging and property boundries.

 

[HikerBob]

Something to ponder.

What if the person doing the flagging is still out there when you tear it all down? If they do lack the skill to find their way back without it and it turns into a search and rescue, or recovery, situation who is to blame?

If the flagging is obviously old and weathered, then I guess it's fair game but if new... I'd give pause for thought.

Bob

 

[spider solo]

The few times I have put up a piece of flagging for a reference point I intial it and put a date on it. I suppose the prime example would be when I was following the IAT in Quebec and suddenly
came across a lot of flaggng first of one color then of another color.
We spent a few hours working through that area which was being "brushed out" after being logged a few years earlier.
There was obviously general confusion because the temporary markers for the new IAt had been cut down as well. I don't think it was done with any animosity just general confusion. Once we hit the landing area and the net work of spur roads it was a long haul of trial and error before we found the right combination to get us through it...much like a mouse in a maze. Ran out of water and fun stuff like that.
I did notice that we write the date different here in the states than across the border.
I did notice on a different BB that the mere mention of flagging came up with the response that you shouldn't be in the woods and blah blah blah....
I suppose a Gps would be nice for those who want to spend their money on such things.

 

[Reekee]

Flagging

If you don't like flagging, climbing Allen will not put you in a good mood.