Fog navigating the northern Presidentials

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Chip said:
I think in most cases in the Northeast it's safer to head up towards a summit or ridge than down into who-knows-what.
I'm with sardog1, it's rarely the right thing to do to continue up into bad weather. Being in the shelter of the trees and staying put is better than being out exposed to the elements. If you are on the edge of King Ravine it's probably best to not go down, but otherwise go down, not up.

-dave-
 
Chip said:
I lost the trail around tree-line, but just continued to head up until I re-took the trail near the summit. I think in most cases in the Northeast it's safer to head up towards a summit or ridge than down into who-knows-what.
It can work if you know that you are on a simple slope, know where it leads to, and are sure that you can get down from there. On the other hand, the weather and travel conditions usually get worse, and ultimately, the top is not where you want to end up. Lots of ifs--I'd think at least twice before doing it.

It is very easy to get disoriented in the fog--keeping a compass out can be very helpful. I carry a 1/2 inch diameter compass on a wrist strap--not good enough for precision navigation, but easy to carry, easy to check, and good enough to stay oriented. You can also get zipper-pull versions. (I also carry a good sighting compass for primary navigation.)

Doug
 
One fog story...

My friend and I were on Laffy in winter and we were going to head down the ridge to do the loop. We were in heavy fog and with the white snow on the ground and the fog in the air, it was very disorientating. I'be been on Laffy and the ridge more times than I can count, but I still had a hard time finding the trail going South.

We poked around and around and the more we looked the more it was like "man, what is the deal? how can I not find a ridge???" At that point you start to get a little anxiety going. I thought I found the trail and with relief we started to head down it. After about 100', I got the feeling that I should pay better attention. So we stopped and pulled out my compass. Instead of going South, we were heading West. My first reation was "what the heck is wrong with my compass?!?!?" :eek: I double checked it and said to myself "this can't be West if this was West, then Cannon would be right in front of me." Right then the clouds parted for a brief second and yah, you guessed it, Cannon Cliff was right in front of me. The view quickly faded.

We headed back up and then found the proper trail. We went down the ridge and had an awesome day.

Bottom line, carry a compass, know how to use it, and don't be too proud to actually take it out and use it.

- darren
 
David Metsky said:
I'm with sardog1, it's rarely the right thing to do to continue up into bad weather. Being in the shelter of the trees and staying put is better than being out exposed to the elements. If you are on the edge of King Ravine it's probably best to not go down, but otherwise go down, not up.

-dave-
I'm not a big fan of leaving the trail in the winter, regardless, I've seen too many "Have you seen this person" signs in the dacks. But in the rain in the summer I still don't think I would have whacked down King's without trying to re-take the trail I had just lost. I certainly agree in blizzard conditions you're better off staying put versus heading higher. Just me maybe, but heading down King's off trail in bad weather in the summer would not be my first choice.
 
Chip said:
...I think in most cases in the Northeast it's safer to head up towards a summit or ridge than down into who-knows-what.

Heading up towards a summit or ridge will bring you into more treacherous weather conditions. Not a good idea if you're looking for shelter. But in some situations it may lead you towards a trail or marker which can help you get back on track.
 
mtnpa said:
Heading up towards a summit or ridge will bring you into more treacherous weather conditions. Not a good idea if you're looking for shelter. But in some situations it may lead you towards a trail or marker which can help you get back on track.
Actually, there *ARE* shelters way up high in the Whites, such as the Summit buildings, Madison, Lakes, etc. BUT! If you read "Not Without Peril", you will see that many people followed the vain hope that they would make it up to these shelters, but in many cases, sadly, they did not. Three people have died over the years on August 24th alone, from exposure. So this is not only a Winter consideration.
 
mtnpa said:
Heading up towards a summit or ridge will bring you into more treacherous weather conditions. Not a good idea if you're looking for shelter..
I agree. The safest place to be in bad weather is on a trail, staying put or heading lower.
mtnpa said:
But in some situations it may lead you towards a trail or marker which can help you get back on track.
This was my only point. Since all trails (generally) head towards a ridge or summit, your odds of locating a trail increase as you head up and decrease dramatically as you whack down. In Shincracker's situation, assuming reasonbly safe albeit wet weather, I would have tried to locate the trail again.
 
Ridgerunner said:
"this can't be East if this was East, then Cannon would be right in front of me."

Bertrand,

Darren is all confused cause he's out in the middle of the ocean right now.

On the topic of compass use: Back to my original question to Shincracker:

Why did he walk N and down, when the map would clearly indicate the hut was almost due E of Thunderstorm Junction? Just curious. Did he have a compass on hand?

As far as walking back up to regain known ground, I find it hard to do cause I am usually tired and lost at the same time. The prospect of going back AND up just sucks!

Re Laffy: I have written the bearing to the hut from the summit on my map. It is very common in winter for folks to wander down into Walker Ravine cause they miss the hut and head down and left (south) too soon.

But, it happens to all of us now and then!

I once spent most of a January evening wandering around after topping out on Pinnacle Gully in Huntington Ravine. We could not find the entry to the Escape Hatch, so we just kept following the terrain down, down, down. A bad mistake.

When my partner punched through the snow crust over the stream just above a waterfall at the bottom of the slope, we knew we had made a bad decision. Now that was a looong walk back AND up to the Lion's Head Trail. We got back to the Harvard Cabin around midnight... just as they were about to come looking for us.

cb
 
Yes, the compasses out here in Hawaii have East and West reversed. What you think of the Far East is our Near West.

Actually when I went to bed last night I thought that maybe I had put East instead of West and thought oh well, I'll fix it early in the morning before anyone sees it....stupid time zones.

Leave it to Ridgerunner to come out of lurking... :)

Anyway, when I was there on the ridge I had the directions right. :eek:

- darren
 
David Metsky said:
Actually, it was left, not right. :)

This is like VftT Old-Timers Day.

-dave-

AHA! It was actually right. I was heading South, so Cannon should have been on my right. And when you look at a map, East is on the right, so I was right. Right? :p

Yah, it is like VFTT Old-Timers Day. Ridgerunner and Chris are old but I didn't want to bring it up... :)

- darren
 
darren said:
Anyone have better solo advice?

I try to avoid hiking solo above treeline when visibility is poor.

When I have lost a trail in the fog (or below treeline in unbroken snow), I've been able to follow the contours of the mountain and eventually get back to the trail. I do carry a map and compass, but have never needed them.

From Thunderstorm Junction, I would not have gone into King's Ravine but walked around the right to Durand Ridge until I found the Madison Hut cut-off or the Airline.
 
This is a very informative thread. I vote this makes the greatest hits album.
 
Thunderstorm Junction

I passed Thunderstorm Junction in ZERO visability just this past Monday, through rain and 30+ winds. We were doing a Hut traverse from Lakes to Madison.
My buddy Bill approached the large cairn just within my visability of him at about 10 paces. I know this area extremely well, but even so, it was tricky to continue on the Gulfside trail as intended, vs. taking the Great Gully or Lowes Path. If you miss the signs, but see the cairns, its easy to follow the wrong path.

Tips:
Gulfside trail is blazed in YELLOW paint, where other routes are mostly just a cairn with quartz rock top.
I keep the compass on hand for use in a flash when the winds have become disoriented which is otherwise my helpfull navigation clue.
Gulfside trail follows due ENE of Thunderstorm Junction to Madison Hut.
 
As others have said, avoid solo hiking above treeline in bad weather. And yes, a length of rope, like parachute cord, does work. With two people it's not as slow as you might think. On a few occasions, with seasoned companions, I've done some summits above treeline where the next cairn isn't quite visible yet one person goes ahead to find it and shouts back when it's found so that others advance. This works so long as it isn't too windy to hear each other other. It's a bit sketchy though, and requires close cooperation.

Wands aren't used much in the East, but are frequently used in other places. On each succeeding wand you mark the compass direction of the previous one, so that you can backtrack using the wands as necessary. I'd be reluctant to use them in the East as others are likely to come along and remove them, not knowing why they were there. Doing that in other areas of the country/world could get you in serious trouble.

Another safety system is to use a GPS to create a track of a route in good weather during summer conditions, and then re-load that track in winter 'just in case'. It would be foolhardy to use this method as a primary safety system, as batteries affected by the cold, rime ice on the device window, etc can make the GPS difficult to use. Having said that - I always carry a 'summer track' in my GPS during winter hikes, and while I've done probably hundreds of winter hikes, I've only found it useful once to use the summer track. Still, that one time kept us (probably) from thrashing around Eisenhower for an extra hour on a cold, miserable late afternoon day one winter.

Personally, I'm extremely cautious above treeline in bad weather when I'm solo. I can't really think of a good reason to do it, at least intentionally. I don't wish to sound judgemental re: Shincracker as I know exactly the problem he encountered around T-storm Jct. The trail coming up from the Great Gully and Gulfside are almost parallel for the last couple of hundred yards, and it would be easy to stray a bit left and head towards the ravine as you were headed to Madison.

As for cairns topped with quartz rocks - I don't think you can count on one route being topped with them and another not. Typically if there's a chuck of quartz around it's used to mark the top.

This is a good discussion, and it's good to air the various safety systems some of us use. Each person has their own comfort level, so what's over the top to one person will be acceptable to another. For new hikers reading these posts I'd suggest you go slowly, and try various techniques to determine what works for you and what is just too damn risky, knowing that with experience most of us push the limit further and further away. In the end, it's your neck - don't let someone talk you into risky behavior unless you know what you're gettin into.

[/soapbox off]
 
Kevin Rooney said:
Another safety system is to use a GPS to create a track of a route in good weather during summer conditions, and then re-load that track in winter 'just in case'. It would be foolhardy to use this method as a primary safety system, as batteries affected by the cold, rime ice on the device window, etc can make the GPS difficult to use. Having said that - I always carry a 'summer track' in my GPS during winter hikes, and while I've done probably hundreds of winter hikes, I've only found it useful once to use the summer track. Still, that one time kept us (probably) from thrashing around Eisenhower for an extra hour on a cold, miserable late afternoon day one winter.

Chauvin Guides has done a great service by publishing their Presidential Traverse Guide. Lots of very useful info for poor visibility navigation, including bearings and coordinates for salient points on the route. I noticed on checking it this morning that the newest version includes a .pdf file with the route details in a printer-friendly format.
 
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sardog1 said:
Chauvin Guides has done a great service by publishing their Presidential Traverse Guide.

Sardog,

The problem with this listing is that it uses Lat/Lon rather than UTM for coordinates.

I find UTM much easier to use in the field.

If anyone is interested, I did a conversion to UTM of all the bearings in the table that accompanies the Chauvin article.

cb
 
Yeah, I'm a notorious booster of UTM myself; I won't talk about lat/lon in my land navigation classes except to disparage it in comparsion.

For those relatively new to GPS -- the conversion to UTM is available automatically once you enter the coordinates in degrees/minutes/seconds (DMS) from the Chauvin Guides document. (Just make sure as always that you know the datum that Chauvin used and use that in your GPS receiver.) Once entered, the coordinates can then be displayed in any coordinate format available in your setup menus.

But if you're trying to do this with a paper map and grid overlay, then ChrisB's conversion would be enormously helpful.
 
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