forced to bareboot by MSRs

[RoySwkr]

Does this issues only happen when the trail is being BROKEN by MSRs? Or is it an issue on most trails these days, because the MSRs are so popular? I own the Evo Ascent, and haven't had any problems. But it appears that I would be contributing to the problem.

It is most notable when the trail is broken deeply by narrow shoes and then freezes as a trough which is hard to widen, but a similar thing can occur when the trail is broken wide and people with narrower shoes then use it creating a second trough in the middle. Of course any trough can drift in from the sides before it freezes making it nasty even for the original width.

 

[dug]

Every year at this time I will vote for even more consideration on the trail.

Instead of packing the trail down in the same snowshoe tract, widen it. It will make skiing much less dangerous instead of doing the standing luge run. Oh, since we're asking, can I also vote to ban glissading (which smooths out the kick-steps), mandate kick-steps on inclines above 35 degrees, and flattened out areas off trail (like rest areas) about every 1/2 mile or so (so I may rest my calves and also have a good spot to change layers if need be? And, last, of course, is that the first party after a snowstorm must be at least 6'3" as to clear the snow off the branches ahead of me.

 

[paul ron]

I'll vote for widening the trails by letting people using narrow snoeshoes to walk side by side.

 

[MichaelJ]

My big honkin' Atlas 1030 snowshoes are only 1/2" wider than my MSRs. That's a total of 1" of width across the entire trail. I vary that much from step to step, if not more when breaking trail. And that's the key ... don't walk directly in each other's steps. Continue to widen/vary/break out the edges of the trail. I don't think the barely-narrower snowshoe can be blamed here as much as the hikers on the soft trail.

 

[skiguy]

Every year at this time I will vote for even more consideration on the trail.

Instead of packing the trail down in the same snowshoe tract, widen it. It will make skiing much less dangerous instead of doing the standing luge run. Oh, since we're asking, can I also vote to ban glissading (which smooths out the kick-steps), mandate kick-steps on inclines above 35 degrees, and flattened out areas off trail (like rest areas) about every 1/2 mile or so (so I may rest my calves and also have a good spot to change layers if need be? And, last, of course, is that the first party after a snowstorm must be at least 6'3" as to clear the snow off the branches ahead of me.

I heard that MSR might actually be coming out with a grooming sled that can be dragged behind yourself to widen and smooth the trail. Also when appropriate there will be a step cutting feature but that will cost extra. Best part is that it comes with a top mounted foam seat for rest stops. I guess MSR has been developing this in answer to all the complaints about their narrow shoes

 

[Mike P.]

How do the few backpackers who do on occasion pull a sled behind deal with this? Is the sled that narrow? (no sarcasm, i'm actually curious)

Don't bushwhack but I do own a pair of the big Tubbs, got them first 11 years ago, they currently collect dust in basement.

On the ADK issue, can someone enlighten me.

Since we don't all have the same snowshoes, how is it decided up high when crampons are okay instead of snowshoes? I get the sign at the trailhead that says you must use snowshoes or the 8" at the trailhead rule but if two people are going up a peak with some fairly steep terrain, the second guys has older shoes with worn or a less aggressive cleat, his snowshoe may not cut it, especially if the worn path has been glissaded down. he'll need crampons but the other guy won't.

Is there a sign near treeline or near the steeps (like the STOP signs in the Presidentials) that tells people they can now use crampons at this point & not be in violation of the 'Burgermeister's' snowshoe laws? It's a personal (safety) decision based on what should be common sense in New England but since you can't use your judgement on snowshoes in the ADK, how do they monitor if you put crampons on too soon or leave them on longer when descending??????

I'm an occasional Catskill hiker, is the snowshoe ordinance in effect there too? If not, how can people be smart enough to know what to place on boots there but need state guidance a bit further north in the same state?

 

[CINDERSMOM]

we just need to train the MSR users to walk with their feet a little wider apart. My husband has MSR's and I have Tubbs and we run into this problem. If he could just keep his feet a little wider... we also have the same problem when we x-country ski. we both have the same skis and bindings but he likes to ski with his feet as close as possibble and I like a couple of inches space - wider base of support = more stability. Our solution is I always break trail!!

 

[John H Swanson]

How do the few backpackers who do on occasion pull a sled behind deal with this? Is the sled that narrow? (no sarcasm, i'm actually curious)

Don't bushwhack but I do own a pair of the big Tubbs, got them first 11 years ago, they currently collect dust in basement.

On the ADK issue, can someone enlighten me.

Since we don't all have the same snowshoes, how is it decided up high when crampons are okay instead of snowshoes? I get the sign at the trailhead that says you must use snowshoes or the 8" at the trailhead rule but if two people are going up a peak with some fairly steep terrain, the second guys has older shoes with worn or a less aggressive cleat, his snowshoe may not cut it, especially if the worn path has been glissaded down. he'll need crampons but the other guy won't.

Is there a sign near treeline or near the steeps (like the STOP signs in the Presidentials) that tells people they can now use crampons at this point & not be in violation of the 'Burgermeister's' snowshoe laws? It's a personal (safety) decision based on what should be common sense in New England but since you can't use your judgement on snowshoes in the ADK, how do they monitor if you put crampons on too soon or leave them on longer when descending??????

I'm an occasional Catskill hiker, is the snowshoe ordinance in effect there too? If not, how can people be smart enough to know what to place on boots there but need state guidance a bit further north in the same state?

Basically the sled rides tilted on it's side partly in the narrow track. For this reason, in this situation, gear attachment on the sled is critical. Should be inside (narrower than) the walls of the sled and abrasion resistant.

The law in question is only for the High Peaks Wilderness area of the adirondacks. If you are outside that wilderness areas then you can decide when and when not to wear the snowshoes. Incidently, the Loj parking lot is not in the High Peaks wilderness area. The boundry is about .8 miles up the trail, before the Algonquin turn off. So technically you can boot it that far. Frequently the high peaks wilderness area boundry is marked. The law says, something like...when the terrain is covered with 8" of snow. So it usually does not apply to the wind blown summits above treeline. Exact details about the law can be found on the DEC website.


Concerning steep terrain and other factors effecting footgear selection, in general, if you are not postholing, it is okay to not wear the snowshoes. Of course if you get a ranger with a stick up his/her ___, then you need to suck up and explain how you thought crampons were okay, but are very willing to put on the showshoes you have with you if (s)he likes. This arguement won't work if you just postholed the trail to ___. I have passed and been passed by many rangers bare booting on the rock hard boiler plate trail from the Loj to Marcy dam without a second look.

 

[skiguy]

Basically the sled rides tilted on it's side partly in the narrow track. For this reason, in this situation, gear attachment on the sled is critical. Should be inside (narrower than) the walls of the sled and abrasion resistant.

The law in question is only for the High Peaks Wilderness area of the adirondacks. If you are outside that wilderness areas then you can decide when and when not to wear the snowshoes. Incidently, the Loj parking lot is not in the High Peaks wilderness area. The boundry is about .8 miles up the trail, before the Algonquin turn off. So technically you can boot it that far. Frequently the high peaks wilderness area boundry is marked. The law says, something like...when the terrain is covered with 8" of snow. So it usually does not apply to the wind blown summits above treeline. Exact details about the law can be found on the DEC website.


Concerning steep terrain and other factors effecting footgear selection, in general, if you are not postholing, it is okay to not wear the snowshoes. Of course if you get a ranger with a stick up his/her ___, then you need to suck up and explain how you thought crampons were okay, but are very willing to put on the showshoes you have with you if (s)he likes. This arguement won't work if you just postholed the trail to ___. I have passed and been passed by many rangers bare booting on the rock hard boiler plate trail from the Loj to Marcy dam without a second look.

All sounds like a big Pile of "Commen Sense". Thanx for summing it up John...a greenie is on your way

 

[Tobit]

As a newbie snowshoer, I'm reading this thread with great interest and trying to comprehend it all. I'm going with a pair of 9-1/2" X 32" Northern Lite Tundras (I'm a pretty big guy) which I guess are of a more traditional design compared to the MSRs.

 

[forestgnome]

Yay!!! I'm not crazy!!! I'm happy to hear that I'm not imagining that the track is sometimes too narrow for my Tubbs, and that it is becoming more frequent.

Well, if these narrower shoes are the coming trend, then so be it. A few suggestions here make sense for those of us who are aware and are considerate enough to simply widen the stance a few inches, because that's all it would take.

I know it's a bit odd and not neccessary, but I take pride in leaving a nice track for the next hikers. I wouldn't expect this of others but it sure would be nice. In New England the fresh fluffy powder doesn't last long, so widening a narrow track is brutal on the joints once the snow hardens.

It's all good and we should be free to use whatever type we like, but maybe try to make it work for each other if we can.

happy trails

 

[hikehike]

I have two working pairs of snowshoes. Both are Tubbs Altitudes, retrofitted with the Viper crampons. One pair is 30" and the other is a 25".

Yes, I do have problems fitting in many narrow gauge tracks with the 30" when using these... but, the the benefits when I get to powder and/or unsupportive/softer tracks outweighs the inconvenience when using the narrower broken track and having to "widen it" when using it.

I have been using the smaller 25" Tubbs more often in the last few years and these fit much better in the narrower tracks.

Having two options is a benefit to me when assessing conditions at a trail head.... and/or after a big storm of powdery snow...

 

[Oldmanwinter]

I believe it is not so much the narrow snowshoes as it is the short snowshoes. When I wear my 22" MSR's the back of the lead shoe is out beyond the front of my rear shoe and I tend to walk in a normal bare boot stride. When I wear my 30" Tubbs I have to keep my feet apart or I step on my own shoe. So even though my MSR's are a total of 1 inch narrower than the Tubbs, my MSR track is much narrower than my Tubbs track. I think someone wearing the new 8X21 inch mountaineer Tubbs will also make a narrow track.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

I believe it is not so much the narrow snowshoes as it is the short snowshoes. When I wear my 22" MSR's the back of the lead shoe is out beyond the front of my rear shoe and I tend to walk in a normal bare boot stride. When I wear my 30" Tubbs I have to keep my feet apart or I step on my own shoe. So even though my MSR's are a total of 1 inch narrower than the Tubbs, my MSR track is much narrower than my Tubbs track. I think someone wearing the new 8X21 inch mountaineer Tubbs will also make a narrow track.

This is great thinking. It is true, girth and length make the difference together, in snowshoes too!

 

[Remix]

I don't get it....


I use 36 inch snowshoes whenever there is snow in the forecast or there is bushwhacking to do (I use 30s on well used trails with no snow in the forecast)

They have ALWAYS been too wide for a freshly broken trail....so I have to suck it up and break some more of the trail using half of the left shoe for a while and then half of the right shoe.

But barebooting in the center of trail would create post holes...

The only alternative I can think of is using skis, but the trail has to be fairly level.

 

[DougPaul]

The only alternative I can think of is using skis, but the trail has to be fairly level.

Which leave an even narrower track...

Doug

 

[dug]

I don't get it....


I use 36 inch snowshoes whenever there is snow in the forecast or there is bushwhacking to do (I use 30s on well used trails with no snow in the forecast)

They have ALWAYS been too wide for a freshly broken trail....so I have to suck it up and break some more of the trail using half of the left shoe for a while and then half of the right shoe.

But barebooting in the center of trail would create post holes...

The only alternative I can think of is using skis, but the trail has to be fairly level.

Not for nothing, but I always try to do this when the conditions allow. It does make the track wider, and easier in the long run. I do wish that if there is a group of ten, not everyone walked in the exact same spot. However, that's trying to mandate a position that just isn't going to happen.

It does make sense to have the tallest guy go first (sorry Tim!).

 

[bikehikeskifish]

It does make sense to have the tallest guy go first (sorry Tim!).

No you're not. But that's OK.

Tim

 

[skiguy]

Concerning steep terrain and other factors effecting footgear selection, in general, if you are not postholing, it is okay to not wear the snowshoes. Of course if you get a ranger with a stick up his/her ___, then you need to suck up and explain how you thought crampons were okay, but are very willing to put on the showshoes you have with you if (s)he likes. This arguement won't work if you just postholed the trail to ___. I have passed and been passed by many rangers bare booting on the rock hard boiler plate trail from the Loj to Marcy dam without a second look.

Has anyone here ever been fined for barebooting in the DAKS?

 

[John H Swanson]

Has anyone here ever been fined for barebooting in the DAKS?

Oh, you bet! (that means yes)