Franconia Notch parking survey

[bikehikeskifish]

I was wondering why there were no cars on Rte 93 at Lafayette when I drove home SAT afternoon of Memorial Day Weekend. Seemed unlikely it was just the weather.

They were there the previous Sunday and it was kind of rainy in the AM and overcast in the PM.

Tim

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I would not be surprised, that if this no parking gets put into place, several parking spots in both lots (either side of 93) are made reserved for hut guests. Then all heck will break out for sure.

Is there any precedent or statute where this could actually happen?

Also, speaking of statutes, I saw a comment on Facebook about charging for parking and then using that money for SAR or Trail Maintenance and I can't see that happening either (the latter, not the former...)

Tim

 

[TJsName]

Sorry for the drift but bring a hand saw if you you do the Howker Ridge Trail. The stretch over the last Howk before Pine Link is full of blowdown (as of 2 weeks ago).

To bring it back a bit, it sounds like people going from Liberty to Galehead might want to as well, as I have heard stretches between are still blow down heavy there too.

 

[JustJoe]

Is there any precedent or statute where this could actually happen?



Tim

Not that I'm aware of, but I can see the AMC pissing and moaning about no parking for their guests and making some sort of deal with the parking.

 

[peakbagger]

Its state of NH controlled land and I expect some sort of deal could be worked out for exclusive AMC parking spaces but expect it would get a lot of pushback. Of course this parking area probably is included in the big deal that allowed the parkway to be built so there may be restriction against reserved use of spaces.

I do know that folks on occasion go to lengths to try to reserve spaces for friends. Several years ago some attendees of the Fool Scout Ball at Lonesome lake parked a couple of vehicles diagonally across several parking spaces on the north end of the lot to save spaces for their buds . I have seen that on and off over the years during the summer to a lesser amount. I have even seen the winter Boston approach of leaving a lawn chair in a space. The far bigger hassle is when the charter buses from Montreal park in the North bound lot. They usually just pull in the travel land and idle until their customers struggle out of the woods.

I expect that designating a shuttle bus zone would probably be a lot easier sell than AMC parking spaces.

 

[TJsName]

I know they have done studies on the number of hikers, but what about parking spots? How many cars are parking along the highway vs available spots? I'd guess there are a few hundred cars on the busiest weekends.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I know they have done studies on the number of hikers, but what about parking spots? How many cars are parking along the highway vs available spots? I'd guess there are a few hundred cars on the busiest weekends.

See for yourself. Conveniently, Google Maps satellite photo was taken on what appears to be a "full house day" A rough count gives me ~150 cars in the lot on the east side and another 75 or more (hard to tell with shadows) on the shoulder(s) of the road.

Tim

 

[Mike P.]

Not thinking the State is going to give up spots in their lot for a MA based Non-profit.

On the other hand, seems to make more sense for us in the know to plan traverses of the Ridge using bikes and parking at Cannon or Skookumchuck and bike down to your starting spot. (We are also the more likely people to get a very early start and get a spot too)

For Hut guests, parking at Cannon and taking the Greenleaf Trail up would be nice. Going through Eagle Pass is quite nice.

 

[Tim Horn]

I have not done this loop in a few years but I used to park at the Flume and make it a large loop starting up the flume and down by the AMC hut (can't remember the trail name) Lots of parking at the Flume and doing the route this way avoids a lot of the crowds. Now I tend to hike another open ridge line that I usually have alone.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I have not done this loop in a few years but I used to park at the Flume and make it a large loop starting up the flume and down by the AMC hut (can't remember the trail name) Lots of parking at the Flume and doing the route this way avoids a lot of the crowds. Now I tend to hike another open ridge line that I usually have alone.

Per the statement quoted above, Flume parking is largely reserved for paying guests of The Flume / Flume Visitor's Center, plus a small number of spots for Mount Pemi.


• The main parking areas at our four primary venues are reserved for paying guests at those venues;

o Flume Gorge / Lafayette Place CG / Aerial Tramway / Echo Lake Beach


Not clear how strict they will be, but you also have The Basin and Liberty Springs/Flume Slide.

Tim

 

[peakbagger]

One of the changes the trailhead volunteers did was shift their hours to later in the day to account for late morning hikers as they tended to be the target audience for "underequipped and clueless" (politically incorrect thing that I expect the volunteers are trained not to say )

Tim's aerial photo is in no way a busy weekend day. The two triangular patches of grass at the entrance and exits will usually fill up with cars parked northbound half way to the Old Man viewing area and southbound half way to the basin. The state park does try to defend the grassy area adjacent to the log cabin but thats about it.

Sure there are plenty of alternative hikes and Greenleaf is one of them but to a casual weekend hiker FW/OBP be it clockwise or counterclockwise is the standard route hyped by many websites and media. Do a search for Mt Lafayette hikes and the top results are all OBP/FW. Many folks climbing don't have maps or trail description beyond what is on their cell phone. Its gets worse as I head down FW in the late morning or early afternoon, all sorts of folks ask if I know where they are and how much farther to the summit.

My brother mentioned that in the good old days, pre parkway, the Skookumchuck Greenleaf loop was more popular. The Skook used to follow the brook right to the current parkway where there was parking. He would then walk down RT3 to Greenleaf. The walk is a bit longer these days once they moved the trailhead north although the bikepath makes for a nicer walk.

Its easy to have the ridge line pretty much to oneself, just hike during the week and start before 7 AM. I do the loop on occasion and frequently I get ahead of the folks at the hut to the summit. The only folks I usually see until I heading down Lincoln are thru hikers and possibly backpackers who stayed at Liberty Springs.

Lot to be said for a trip over to Saddleback and the Horn in Maine, similar ridgeline, far fewer crowds. Northern Peaks Trail at Baxter is also similar terrain and rarely visited. We did it two years ago on a super Labor day weekend sunday and saw no one from Chimney Pond to Russell Pond. The Northwest Basin Trail is similar. Lincoln and Lafayette are doomed to be crowded as they are within the magic two hours of Mass. Not going to change unless they go with permit system like Whitney in California.

 

[JoshandBaron]

Not thinking the State is going to give up spots in their lot for a MA based Non-profit.

They gave up land in their state parks for them to build their huts, why would it be a stretch for them to set aside some parking?

 

[Grey J]

The Howks are awesome!

Agreed. Cool trail and moose heaven. And those who park illegally can be confined in the Bear Pit.

 

[Salty]

They gave up land in their state parks for them to build their huts, why would it be a stretch for them to set aside some parking?

FWIW, only Lonesome Lake is in the State Park, Greenleaf is just outside it. Not that it invalidates your point.

I see several possible solutions, and shuttles could be part of that. If they want to stop parking on 93 by Lafayette, why not just start with putting up no parking signs, subject to towing, blah blah (unless they have done that recently), or if you have to get extreme, guardrails.

It strikes me from looking at the terrain from GE and topo maps that they could expand the south end of the northbound lot by quite a bit, if they desired.

And perhaps as much as some may bristle at the suggestion (including to a degree, myself), maybe it should go to a reservation based system like Baxter. Cut down on the hoards and make it a more pleasant experience for everyone, plus hut guests would be guaranteed access. Guests of the attractions can have their own lot with their own parking pass for verification/enforcement. Yeah, there's a lot of work where the State is involved, but with as this is getting to be more and more of a problem, the question should be asked, is it worth it going to such measures to achieve a goal.

 

[Mike P.]

FWIW, only Lonesome Lake is in the State Park, Greenleaf is just outside it. Not that it invalidates your point.

It strikes me from looking at the terrain from GE and topo maps that they could expand the south end of the northbound lot by quite a bit, if they desired.

And perhaps as much as some may bristle at the suggestion (including to a degree, myself), maybe it should go to a reservation based system like Baxter. Cut down on the hoards and make it a more pleasant experience for everyone, plus hut guests would be guaranteed access. Guests of the attractions can have their own lot with their own parking pass for verification/enforcement. Yeah, there's a lot of work where the State is involved, but with as this is getting to be more and more of a problem, the question should be asked, is it worth it going to such measures to achieve a goal.

I thought Greenleaf was just outside too, not sure where the boundary is on the other side. A permit system is going to be hard as there are too many roads entering the Whites. Baxter does not have permits for day use, just a gate and first come first serve. (did it change?) The camping is done on a permit basis and while the camping at Liberty Springs is frequently overcrowded, the campers are not driving the lot traffic, it's mostly day hikers.

 

[Salty]

I thought Greenleaf was just outside too, not sure where the boundary is on the other side. A permit system is going to be hard as there are too many roads entering the Whites. Baxter does not have permits for day use, just a gate and first come first serve. (did it change?) The camping is done on a permit basis and while the camping at Liberty Springs is frequently overcrowded, the campers are not driving the lot traffic, it's mostly day hikers.

Lonesome Lake is at closest 1000 feet from the boundary.

https://mappingsupport.com/p/gmap4.php?ll=44.141902,-71.712883&z=14&t=t2

My bad on Baxter, I was thinking of the Day Use Permit system, but that's only for Maine residents. I was envisioning more some sort of online/mail/call system where your reserve and get a permit mailed or printed, and hang inside your vehicle to show you're legal. Perhaps even at Cannon you could grab one at the last minute if there's still openings that day. I admit it's not a great solution, but I'm not sure there are any. I'm definitely down with the arrive early crowd.

 

[peakbagger]

In the mid eighties, there was a permit system for the Great Gulf, I just missed it when I moved up into the area. The local people I talked to didnt have good things to say about it.

 

[Jazzbo]

One solution would be for state of NH (in cooperation with WMNF, AMC) to provide regular and reliable shuttle bus service between parking lots at Skookumchuk, Flume, Cannon and/or Lincoln Woods. Something which one could reliably expect shuttle bus to come by at least every 15-20 minutes between some block of time on weekends. This would help solve parking lot problem and provide extra value as it might enable hikers to plan traverses of all kinds. This might only be offered on weekends only basis.

I seem to recall AMC offering shuttle bus service many years ago. AMC or any one stakeholder going it alone just doesn't achieve economy of scale to make it really useful or economical. Might need to charge nominal fee to help pay for the service.

 

[TomK]

• The main parking areas at our four primary venues are reserved for paying guests at those venues;

o Flume Gorge / Lafayette Place CG / Aerial Tramway / Echo Lake Beach

Just curious - How do they tell if a car belongs to a hiker, or if it belongs to a paying guest of one of the venues?

Last time I parked at the Flume Gorge parking lot, it was just to use the facilities after a hike. I just parked, visited the facilities, and left. I don't remember anything that indicated "you can only park here if you are paying"... Or did I miss that?

TomK

 

[peakbagger]

Pretty Simple, post the lots "x hours parking" then hire a meter person and give them piece of chalk to mark tires and ticket book. Done in plenty of cities.