Franconia Ridge Rescue Followup

[rocket21]

Saw this over on Rocks, figured I'd post it here as well:

Union Leader Article

VFTT Thread

Though wearing adequate clothing, with snowshoes and crampons, the two men were not prepared for an overnight and had no sleeping bags, said Bogardus.

Previously, it was implied they didn't have snowshoes or crampons - according to this article, they did.

Good to hear the survivor is making a strong recovery.

 

[forestgnome]

OK, I'll risk scorn and state what I think is an obvious and extremely stupid comment. They were said to have adequate clothing. How can this possibly be true? They would have endured the conditions if so, and made it down on their own. But they could not handle the forecasted conditions. Therfore, they did not have adequate clothing. What am I missing?

 

[rocket21]

OK, I'll risk scorn and state what I think is an obvious and extremely stupid comment. They were said to have adequate clothing. How can this possibly be true? They would have endured the conditions if so, and made it down on their own. But they could not handle the forecasted conditions. Therfore, they did not have adequate clothing. What am I missing?

It's the press, don't ask such obvious questions After all, previous articles stated they didn't have snowshoes, yet now they do.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I assume a lot of people on these forums (me included) don't carry a sleeping bag for day winter hikes. Based upon the latest article, ie having 'adequate' winter clothing, crampons, and snowshoes, that could have been anyone here (aside from not reading the forecast).

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I don't carry a winter bag or winter bivvy either. Maybe some day. Right now I'm in the 'light and fast' group and I'm very picky about the days.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I assume a lot of people on these forums (me included) don't carry a sleeping bag for day winter hikes. Based upon the latest article, ie having 'adequate' winter clothing, crampons, and snowshoes, that could have been anyone here (aside from not reading the forecast).

A winter sleeping bag is a bit heavy for a soloist, but in a group organized enough to share emergency gear it can be a good idea. A closed cell foam pad and a light-weight emergency bivy sack are, IMO, worth carrying. The pad can also be used as a magazine splint.

Both the pad and the bivy were useful after my accident and might have made the difference between life or death if I had had to wait out the night.

Doug

 

[Paradox]

A winter sleeping bag is a bit heavy for a soloist, but in a group organized enough to share emergency gear it can be a good idea. A closed cell foam pad and a light-weight emergency bivy sack are, IMO, worth carrying. The pad can also be used as a magazine splint.

Both the pad and the bivy were useful after my accident and might have made the difference between life or death if I had had to wait out the night.

Doug

Doug correct me if I am thinking of someone else's post, but didn't you post that you had thought your pack weight contributed (caused?) the severity of your injuries? At what point is all the stuff to be used in any eventuallity going to become a hindrance?

 

[Grayjay]

Even a space blanket apiece would have helped.
This group was unlucky with the storm. I was in Tamworth at the time, and was surprised by the intensity of the blizzard.
You would think that, even in a 75 mph blizzard, one might be able to make it back to Falling Waters a little bit at a time. But if one were past Lincoln and had to go back over the top of that, and didn't have the presence to use one's snowshoes to skirt the ridge on the east side...But many the blizzard just curved down and was bad everywhere.
Anyway its all 20/20 hindsight.

 

[Maddy]

My friend came home from the hospital yesterday after having surgery to repair her FX HIP!
Out for daily hike in the woods back of her home, one crampon caught and she went crashing down, breaking the hip.
She is always very well dressed.
The FIRST thing she related to me about the incidence was how COLD it got VERY FAST lying on the snow and ice. She attempted to move but was not successful.
Fortunately, the cell phone worked and 911 came. They actually had to use ropes to get her out. They started an IV immediately and gave her some Morphine. She had also called her significant other who came down to the scene with blankets before 911 arrived.
She is OK now but fully appreciates the probable consequence of hypothermia if she had no cell signal. It would have been several hours before her friend realized that something was very wrong.
People laugh at me because I carry "emergency" gear on my walks in the woods.
Those darn girl scouts taught me to "BE PREPARED" and I still to this day swear by that motto.
Freezing is NOT my idea of FUN and Lord knows, I know not to depend on cell phones.

 

[sardog1]

I've carried a sleeping bag in the past on day trips. It has the paradoxical effects of increasing my sense of well-being and limiting my range for the day by its weight. I've found an alternative that reduces the weight and bulk tremendously: Blizzard Sleeping Bag. It cost me $27.000 plus shipping. An orange version is available from another distributor for $39.99 plus shipping.

Whatever you choose to take or not take with you, a foam pad is mandatory, IMO. Either you or someone you encounter is going to benefit from a barrier between you and the cold, cold heart of Mother Earth.

 

[Lawn Sale]

A winter sleeping bag is a bit heavy for a soloist, but in a group organized enough to share emergency gear it can be a good idea. A closed cell foam pad and a light-weight emergency bivy sack are, IMO, worth carrying. The pad can also be used as a magazine splint.

Both the pad and the bivy were useful after my accident and might have made the difference between life or death if I had had to wait out the night.

Doug

I don't think an extra 2 pounds makes a whole ton of difference, and with a compression sack, it wouldn't take up a lot of room either. A nalgene is 2 pounds and takes up about the same space.

When in small groups like that or solo, I always take a 15° down bag with a bivy, so if for some unforeseen reason I had to spend the night I would at least have a chance. Anyone remember the spill Doug Millen took in '06?

 

[Maddy]

Doug correct me if I am thinking of someone else's post, but didn't you post that you had thought your pack weight contributed (caused?) the severity of your injuries? At what point is all the stuff to be used in any eventuallity going to become a hindrance?

The way I look at this is it's only a "hindrance" if you don't need it. It rapidly turns into a "blessing" when the "S!%T" hits the fan!

 

[sli74]

Solo in winter, I have always carried a down sleeping bag and stove and cookset. Now, I hike with Brian and we carry only 1 sleeping bag between the 2 of us. No matter what hike, we always have a sleeping bag and a stove, fuel and cookpot with us all winter. I used to do so much hiking alone that the habit of being "over-prepared" has always stuck.

I am so happy Osborne is recovering, he is indeed lucky and I wish him the best in a speedy recovery both physically and emotionally.

sli74

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I've carried a sleeping bag in the past on day trips. It has the paradoxical effects of increasing my sense of well-being and limiting my range for the day by its weight. I've found an alternative that reduces the weight and bulk tremendously: Blizzard Sleeping Bag. It cost me $27.000 plus shipping. An orange version is available from another distributor for $39.99 plus shipping.

Whatever you choose to take or not take with you, a foam pad is mandatory, IMO. Either you or someone you encounter is going to benefit from a barrier between you and the cold, cold heart of Mother Earth.

You did us all a service by posting a link to those emergency bags - thanks.

Seems like an obvious question, but ... wouldn't an orange bag be the obvious choice? Unless perhaps you were planning on using it as a 'regular' bag?

Another question - I carry an emergency bivy (Adventure Medical). Do you think it's a good idea to carry both the bivy and the Blizzard bag, or do you think the Blizzard bag is sufficient?

 

[truepatriot09]

Even a 20 degree bag would have been helpful. If you subscribe the ultra lightweight philosophy, most of those guys will carry a 20 degree "blanket" and than sleep with all their layers on to add extra warmth. If you have all the clothing you need for a winter hike, and add a lightweight down 20 degree bag/blanket, it would add significant warmth and not add that much extra weight.

 

[DougPaul]

Doug correct me if I am thinking of someone else's post, but didn't you post that you had thought your pack weight contributed (caused?) the severity of your injuries?

It is possible. The injuries occurred because a ski (or both skis) interacted with a blowdown. (My pack weight was ~23 lbs.)
* Did I fail to miss the blowdown because the weight interfered with my turn around it? Possibly.
* Did the extra weight contribute to the forces that caused the bones to break? Possibly.
(In other words, I don't know. But it is possible.)

At what point is all the stuff to be used in any eventuallity going to become a hindrance?

This is a judgment, philosophy, and attitude call. You have to guess the probability of various accident scenarios, injuries, delays until evacuation, effects of the injuries, etc and trade it off against the effects of the weight (decreased mobility, increased fatigue, and increased probability of an accident). Add in your risk tolerance and desire to achieve some goal...

You cannot carry everything--your car isn't big enough to bring it to the trailhead and no hiker is strong enough to carry it all.

There are no hard answers, but there may be accepted practices.


FWIW, my college outing club list of group safety gear for winter dayhikes included:
* first aid kit
* 1/2 in closed cell foam pad
* winter sleeping bag
* thermos or winter stove and pot
* tent shell or bivy sack (if going above timberline)
(A winter overnight automatically includes everything except the first aid kit.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Even a space blanket apiece would have helped.

A flat sheet is very hard to use effectively in high winds. IMO, some form of bag (eg an emergency bivy sack) is a better choice because it will give you more protection from wind and is easier to prevent from blowing away.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Whatever you choose to take or not take with you, a foam pad is mandatory, IMO. Either you or someone you encounter is going to benefit from a barrier between you and the cold, cold heart of Mother Earth.

Agreed. Hypothermia and shock set in very rapidly after an accident out in the cold--keeping the victim warm and as dry as possible are top priorities.

One of the first things that we did after my accident was to get me up out of the snow and onto a closed cell foam pad*. This, plus the "crash suit"**, down jacket and bivy sack kept me warm enough that I did not exhibit signs of hypothermia or shock (as self-observed) in the 2-3 hrs between the accident and reaching the heated ambulance. (Temps were ~20F with light winds.)

* I have generally carried a full length pad, but only had an 18in square that day. The full length would have been better and essential had I not been able to sit up. The full length pad will go with me in the future.

** My "crash suit" is just several fleece jackets, a hard shell, and a hat. I generally put it on before an extended downhill ski to keep me warm, crash or not. If you do crash and are unable to get up out of the snow it will help to keep you warm and dry.


Some winter-oriented first aid training can be very useful when dealing with cold-weather accidents. There are aspects that simply are not dealt with adequately in non-winter oriented training.

Doug

 

[Waumbek]

My friend came home from the hospital yesterday after having surgery to repair her FX HIP!Out for daily hike in the woods back of her home, one crampon caught and she went crashing down, breaking the hip. She is always very well dressed.The FIRST thing she related to me about the incidence was how COLD it got VERY FAST lying on the snow and ice. She attempted to move but was not successful.Fortunately, the cell phone worked and 911 came. They actually had to use ropes to get her out. They started an IV immediately and gave her some Morphine. She had also called her significant other who came down to the scene with blankets before 911 arrived. She is OK now but fully appreciates the probable consequence of hypothermia if she had no cell signal. It would have been several hours before her friend** realized that something was very wrong. People laugh at me because I carry "emergency" gear on my walks in the woods. Those darn girl scouts taught me to "BE PREPARED" and I still to this day swear by that motto. Freezing is NOT my idea of FUN and Lord knows, I know not to depend on cell phones.*

Good points, Maddy. Many people take 6 walks in the woods (daily for dogs or exercise) to every 1 full-scale hike in the mountains, but don't consider what it would be like to lie on the ground for a few hours until someone realized they were over due. I make sure my daily walks-in-the-woods are totally solo and where noone else goes--that's the point of them. On cold and windy days, I have started taking an emergency silver bag and closed cell pad (z-rest) just in case. They can't weigh more than 2 lbs. total. I can rarely get cell phone coverage and never think of it as first line of defense.

 

[Maddy]

A flat sheet is very hard to use effectively in high winds. IMO, some form of bag (eg an emergency bivy sack) is a better choice because it will give you more protection from wind and is easier to prevent from blowing away.

Doug

I don't know about those "space blankets". I don't put much faith in them. I remember one very cold night in September being in the Lakes Hut, just before it closed for the season. My friend and I were using all the wool blankets on our bunks and our space blankets. We were very cold all night.
I would not want to stake my life on that thing keeping me toasty outside in bitter cold and high winds.

 

[rocket21]

By space blankets, I assume you're talking about the foil-like 'emergency blankets' they sell? If I'm not mistaken, they're considered most effective when actually touching the skin.