General Mountaineering Ice Axe vs An Actual Ice Axe

[DayTrip]

While I was hiking with my dog yesterday, I came across a small ice slab blocking the way up a cliff we needed to climb. Your post actually popped into my head. I studied the terrain and using a combination of footwork and a few trees, all while managing my dog and his leash made my way up. It was the same drill on the way down, albeit more carefully, a 60 lb Australian Shepard can be tenacious, lol. I was thinking about your question and it seems that it's not an ice axe that is the issue, although for sure you could use some beta on tools, but I thought technique for climbing the occasional ice bulge would go longer in the beneficial dept. I was able to assess the situation and come up with a reasonable plan to climb the ice without an ice axe. I would consider signing up for a one-day private guide in North Conway, I could recommend a few if you need that. While it's not cheap, learning firsthand a variety of techniques from someone skilled would be worth every penny and the experience you gain would be with you for the rest of your climbing career. I have hired private guides myself in the past, I went private for a few reasons. One, I want the focus on my specific needs, I don't want to stand around waiting for someone to learn what I already know, secondly, you can cover a lot of ground one on one. Anywho, I think mountaineering is a learned skill, I get to go out every week and do, not having that option can increase the learning curve to years. One day of guiding can be the equivalent of years of trial and error. Hope that helps.

When there are trees it is much easier. I'm talking about those wide areas overflowing over scrambles where trees are non existent. I know how to place my feet but it just feels unsecure when there is nothing to grab with my hands walking up a fairly vertical flow. I should try to find a better picture of what I'm talking about in my photos. Rocks and other obstacles often make reaching for a tree more dangerous or impossible.

Your point, like others have mentioned, is well taken though. I'm sure I'd benefit from a lesson addressing the specific issue that concerns me. With a 3-4 hour drive (1 way) for a hike in the Whites limiting my # of trips and the variability of conditions each season I only run into this scenario maybe a few times a year so practicing and gaining experience does come slowly if at all. I'd like to eventually start doing the lesser traveled trails in Winter like I do in Summer so gear and skills are both a requirement. Wish I was closer....

 

[ChrisB]

Evolution.... 1965 to 2010




My kingdom for a Hummingbird!!!

 

[DayTrip]

Evolution.... 1965 to 2010


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It is crazy to see the equipment they used "back in the day" for climbing big mountains like the Himalayas. Yesterday morning I watched that YouTube video on Ama Dablam that richard mentioned and it is funny to see the gear they used and the way they climbed those peaks. It seems impossible. The balls and determination those guys had must have been quite impressive. Seems like a suicide mission by today's standards.

 

[ChrisB]

It is crazy to see the equipment they used "back in the day" for climbing big mountains like the Himalayas. Yesterday morning I watched that YouTube video on Ama Dablam that richard mentioned and it is funny to see the gear they used and the way they climbed those peaks. It seems impossible. The balls and determination those guys had must have been quite impressive. Seems like a suicide mission by today's standards.

Very true. Formerly difficult and challenging climbs have gotten easier and safer due to improvements in equipment. And the limits of the possible greatly extended.

I wonder how many contemporary sports could ascend Pinnacle Gulley by laboriously cutting steps rather than front pointing with great tool placements?!

Not this one!

 

[sierra]

It is crazy to see the equipment they used "back in the day" for climbing big mountains like the Himalayas. Yesterday morning I watched that YouTube video on Ama Dablam that richard mentioned and it is funny to see the gear they used and the way they climbed those peaks. It seems impossible. The balls and determination those guys had must have been quite impressive. Seems like a suicide mission by today's standards.

Personally, I think it's a stretch to think climbers were tougher or harder back "In the day". People use and adapt to what's on hand, regardless of the level or expense of the gear. I started out with sweaters and a 40 dollar tent and did a winter Pemi loop at 17 years old. It was one cold trip and I had some "issues", but I made it. I've had equally hard days since then, wearing and carrying the best gear money can buy. Every time someone on a FB group says you can't winter hike without Lightning Ascents, I want to scream. I did a winter Pemi loop in wooden snowshoes with no traction under them, not that I would recommend it, lol.

 

[Mike P.]

Great info. Oddly, in MFOTH, The axe is supposed to be used before crampons. How often do we bring both Micro's and 12- point crampons? If you just bring the Mciro's you should be ready to bail if you get ice that would overwhelm your footwear. (Yet we know some will prevail missing, or mis-using. equipment.)

Only a few mentioned but expect most do here, a leash is mandatory. Axes have been found several hundred feet above their owners lifeless bodies before. Mountaineering axes are probably the proper tool for braking if glissading from Mt. Field on the steeper sections of the Mt. Avalon Trail or for those with butt sleds that descend trails as a fairly decent rate of speed.

My most memorable axe use was with rotton snow in the Carters and not as intended. My snowshoe punctured the surface where it had melted underneath but slid forward to wear it was under a frozen crust I couldn't pull it through. Poking the crust with the pole might have provide results eventually, I took the axe off my pack and made quick work of the problem.

 

[ChrisB]

Personally, I think it's a stretch to think climbers were tougher or harder back "In the day". ...

Maybe, but olde Guy Waterman would take strong exception to that opinion!

I believe he once re-enacted the first ascent of Pinnacle Gully wearing period clothing and using period equipment. The period was the 1930s!

God knows what he’d think of dry-tooling on a modern mixed route.

 

[DayTrip]

How often do we bring both Micro's and 12- point crampons? .

I have microspikes/Hillshounds and my 10 pt G-10 Crampons on every Winter hike (once ice starts forming obviously). I own G-12's but don't currently have boots for them because of all the problems I've had with cold feet and finding a brand of boot that doesn't destroy me feet.

 

[DayTrip]

I did a winter Pemi loop in wooden snowshoes with no traction under them, not that I would recommend it, lol.

My first snowshoe "hike" was back in the late 80's using old, rental wooden snowshoes from Baldy's Store on the Kanc. It was definitely an adventure on any kind of incline with nothing to grab onto. I wore basketball sneakers with wool socks stuffed in Ziploc freezer bags to keep dry, jeans and a ski jacket with Budweisers in all the pockets for hydration. Modern hikers are soft....

 

[sierra]

Maybe, but olde Guy Waterman would take strong exception to that opinion!

I believe he once re-enacted the first ascent of Pinnacle Gully wearing period clothing and using period equipment. The period was the 1930s!

God knows what he’d think of dry-tooling on a modern mixed route.

Ok, Guy is an exception for sure. Back when he maintained the FRT, I used to run into him up there. Spooky guy, I think I saw him a few times before he felt like talking to me. I believe he was the first person to climb every 4k from each point of the compass. That takes a minute to comprehend.

 

[ChrisB]

Ok, Guy is an exception for sure. Back when he maintained the FRT, I used to run into him up there. Spooky guy, I think I saw him a few times before he felt like talking to me. I believe he was the first person to climb every 4k from each point of the compass. That takes a minute to comprehend.

Yes, he was a bit odd. I first met him when he was caretaking Grey Knob in the Winter of 71 I think.

We were staying at Crag Camp and he came over and gave my buddy and I the third degree trying to ascertain if we were qualified to head above tree line the next morning.

We did Adams and Madison the next day. We came upon him at tree line descending back to the cabin in very low viz. He said he was just out taking a walk, but I've always assumed he was looking for us to make sure we found our way home at the end of that long day.

 

[DougPaul]

These days people seem to have forgotten step cutting--it can be very helpful for dealing with short steep sections.

A general mountaineering axe is a better tool for this than a short climbing axe/tool. (The technique for breaking out a step is different from the technique for setting a pick. You lift the handle as the pick strikes.)

See "Climbing Ice"...

Doug

 

[DayTrip]

These days people seem to have forgotten step cutting--it can be very helpful for dealing with short steep sections.

A general mountaineering axe is a better tool for this than a short climbing axe/tool. (The technique for breaking out a step is different from the technique for setting a pick. You lift the handle as the pick strikes.)

See "Climbing Ice"...

Doug

That's a fair point. I don't know that I ever thought to try that. My assumption is always that I have to climb it as I find it.

 

[TCD]

I only had to cut steps once. Learned it from reading "Climbing Ice" and from a 6 day AAI course on Mt. Baker.

A group of friends joined me on a winter night hike of Noonmark Mountain in the Adirondacks. A section of the trail is notoriously icy, and my friends did not have front point crampons. So under the bright moon, I cut steps (only for about 20 feet). It made the difference, and everyone got up and down with no trouble.

Thanks, DougPaul for reminding me of that fun memory!

 

[skiguy]

Yes, he was a bit odd. I first met him when he was caretaking Grey Knob in the Winter of 71 I think.

We were staying at Crag Camp and he came over and gave my buddy and I the third degree trying to ascertain if we were qualified to head above tree line the next morning.

We did Adams and Madison the next day. We came upon him at tree line descending back to the cabin in very low viz. He said he was just out taking a walk, but I've always assumed he was looking for us to make sure we found our way home at the end of that long day.

"71 ? Didn't realize Guy went that far back with the RMC. Interesting his name comes up in this thread as Guy was certainly a traditionalist when it came to gear. I spent a lot of time at RMC Camps back in The Winters of the late 80's and early 90's when Guy was sub caretaking. I was fortunate to get a look at his inner psyche and his inner circle of friends/climbers. I was actively training for my Alaskan Climbing trips at the time. We had deep conversations multiple times as Guy had lost his Son to the Alaskan arena. What was interesting was always the discussions about gear. Guy with his Army/Navy Surplus clothing adorned with his 90cm wooded shafted Ice axe. I was fortunate at the time to be associated and working closely with the outdoor industry, so I was adorned with the latest and greatest. Chip Brown in his book "Good Morning Midnight" copyrighted around 2003 made a point of parodying those moments. Yes he was odd but it was a privilege to have known and talked with him.

 

[sierra]

That's a fair point. I don't know that I ever thought to try that. My assumption is always that I have to climb it as I find it.

With all due respect to Doug, cutting steps is not a modern-day technique at all. It's time consuming and almost unnecessary at this point. The main reason they cut steps, is because they only had 10-point crampons and front pointing was not an option. With modern 12-point crampons, you just front point up step ice, no need to cut steps.

 

[DayTrip]

With all due respect to Doug, cutting steps is not a modern-day technique at all. It's time consuming and almost unnecessary at this point. The main reason they cut steps, is because they only had 10-point crampons and front pointing was not an option. With modern 12-point crampons, you just front point up step ice, no need to cut steps.

To be fair to DougPaul and some others here I think they are answering the question in the context of how I asked it - an unusual situation that I encounter maybe every 2-3 Winter hikes in specific terrain. I normally have 10 pt crampons and a softer general purpose boot so front pointing might not be an option for me so chopping a notch or two in the ice could be a valid option versus carrying an ice tool. I don't think he was providing general ice climbing advice. I think TCD's story was a good example. One time thing that worked in unusual circumstances.

 

[ChrisB]

Looks like above tree-line trekkers will get a chance to use crampons and ice axe this weekend.

A deep thaw with rain for the summits, followed by a very quick hard freeze is forecasted. Even moderate slopes could be potentially dangerous.

Do you know what to do if you find yourself on that slippery slope? Hope so! Be safe.

 

[DayTrip]

Do you know what to do if you find yourself on that slippery slope? Hope so! Be safe.

Stay home and drink imperial stouts....