Geocaching in the Whites

[Kurchian]

I have noticed that there are geocaches scattered throughout the WMNF. Are there any official restrictions to the placing of these in the WMNF or is it one of those "don't ask, don't tell" kind of activities?

 

[albee]

I know they removed the one from the old summit of Owl's Head. There is a "virtual" cache in the guestbook at Lakes of the Clouds hut, but that is just some writing in the book so it is harmless. There is another virtual near the summit of Washington that basically marks where a memorial is placed, and there is a Mount Washington observation deck webcam cache.

I think there are a few "virtuals" in the Franconia Notch area as well.

I believe the actual cache containers are officially discouraged by the WMNF. Last time I checked, there weren't many that were actually "in" the forest. Maybe there are some in or close to parking areas or close to existing structures, but I don't think the containers are allowed in the woods due to LNT codes.

Maybe somebody else could answer this one better. I'd rather not see actual caches places in the woods, but if they are "virtual" and lead one to interesting spots then I'm all for it. If I knew there were cannisters up there in the woods near the hiking trails, I would be inclined to stop and sign in - it combines two of my favorite hobbies - but I wouldn't contribute by placing one myself.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I know they removed the one from the old summit of Owl's Head.

Who are they?


Keith

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Too answer the question I am not aware of any rule against doing this in the Forest. There may be restrictions about such things in the wilderness areas which would include Owls Head. At least thats how I read the regs. I would still like to know if someone in authority was actually the one to remove the Owls head cache. If someone has an different opinion or direct knowledge on this I would like to hear it also. Since the caches are not just left unattended they are not trash and don't fulfill the definition of trash. They are hidden so they are not an eyesore. The people seeking them do it so they are not usually seen getting the cache. They are also not any type of permanent structure and they are usually pretty small. I don't see a problem with them but if they are actually illegal I would like to know about that. Mine has been out there since 2004 with 174 visits.

Albee, where did you hear or read about them being officially discouraged? I usually try to avoid breaking the rules so I would like to know if this is the case.

My families cache

Thanks,
Keith

 

[DougPaul]

Too answer the question I am not aware of any rule against doing this in the Forest.

I don't know of any speciic rules, but caches do involve leaving private property lying around, in this case on federal lands. They also tend to concentrate traffic in certain "unusual" areas sometimes leading to localized environmental damage.

I have heard of caches being disallowed in NPS areas. Strictly speaking, I suppose one should ask first, but that could easily result in a default "no" answer.

Doug

 

[albee]

I can't honestly say that I know the definitive answer to this question. I do know that in February 2005 I went looking for the cache on the old summit of Owl's Head and I couldn't find it because of 2 feet of snow on the ground.... I know, not one of my brighter moments, but in my defense, it hadn't been disabled at the time which lead me to believe it would be hidden above snow-level. Later in the year, as I was planning another crack at it, I found that it had been archived and the owner noted that the WMNF had contacted him to tell him that they removed it. (Maybe it was Ranger Dick!) I can't find the archive of this cache any longer.

It might not officially be against the law because there is a link to "Geocaching" on the WMNF's recreational opportunities website, although the link is undeveloped as of this time. Doing a search of the area, it seems there are quite a few caches along the roads and trails of the White Mountains, including high up on Liberty Springs, near the summit of Mt Eisenhower, just off Jefferson Notch Road, near the summit of Wildcat, etc...

I plan on logging these caches if I'm ever in the area on a hike. I have no problem with caches in the national forest. I was just stating that I personally wouldn't choose to place one due to LNT ethics. I don't intend to encourage or discourage others to do the same... hey, hike your own hike and cache your own cache, right?

 

[psmart]

One objective of the 1964 Wilderness Act was to restore and preserve areas where "natural forces prevail and the works of man are substantially unnoticable."

This is the basis for the general policy of minimizing man-made structures and artifical features in Wilderenss area (although the act does allows for the retention and preservation of historic features, such as logging artifacts.)

My personal view: Unless it serves to directly protect the Wilderness resource, it shouldn't be in Wilderness. Trails and basic signage often meet this goal, since they help to manage and minimize human impacts.

But I don't see how geocache sites (or canisters for that matter) do anything to protect wilderness resources. In fact, by leaving your "mark" on a trailless summit, you're depriving others of the sense that they are the first to visit that special place.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I guess I need to state again that I consider wilderness areas different. I haven't and wouldn't put a geocache in a wilderness area. I believe that the regs are pretty clear that a manmade object, with certain exceptions, are not allowed. I will also say that I wouldn't consider that a geocache in a wilderness area to be the crime of the century. Other parts of the National forest I would see as perfectly acceptable unless there is a restriction against it. The National forest is a multi use area. If you can cut timber in it, I can't see a real problem with leaving a hidden 3x5x5 box.

Keith

 

[psmart]

Other parts of the National forest I would see as perfectly acceptable unless there is a restriction against it.

There may be regulations that apply. I believe that "storage" of any item in the WMNF is prohibited, but I would need to do some research to be sure.

Even though a single cache might not be a problem, where do you draw the line? It becomes a difficult matter to decide how much to allow. Isn't this covered by LNT guidelines?

 

[Pete_Hickey]

A fair summary is here:

http://forestry.about.com/od/mappinggis/p/fed_geocache.htm

In (some?) Wilderness areas in Oregon, 'they' monitor geocacheing sites on the net to locate, then remove them.

 

[marchowes]

My only experience with any sort of geocaching in the Whites was research on the Geocache placed at the plane wreck on Moosilauke (actually Waternomee) It was removed for what I believe to be a good reason: The coordinates gave people easy access to the wreck which ended up causing a rash of vandalism and theft of the remains. I do not know if the problem continued after the cache was removed (and delsited on the site) or not. Other than issues like that I personally don't see a problem with them and enjoy hunting them down.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

A fair summary is here:

http://forestry.about.com/od/mappinggis/p/fed_geocache.htm

In (some?) Wilderness areas in Oregon, 'they' monitor geocacheing sites on the net to locate, then remove them.

If I read this right than there is no problem in the national forest if you maintain the geocache in non-wilderness areas. That is the long and short of it.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

If I read this right than there is no problem in the national forest if you maintain the geocache in non-wilderness areas. That is the long and short of it.

Unless local policies differ...

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

As a federal agency (USFS) I would expect that they have a single policy instituted. It appears that what I have quoted below is an interpretation of that federal policy. While local agencies may or may not like the federal policy or may want to do something different, I would expect that they should first, need a compelling reason to not follow what appears to be the agencies policy. If they are allowed to have a policy (exception) that is different than the standard policy then the onerous is on that local agency to make sure everyone is aware. I should not have to search (hard search) to find out exceptions to a federal rule. My geocache is easy to find (as are all others) on the net. Just a little finger searching is needed. If they want me to remove it all they need do is ask (email address is provided) and tell me the relevant policy in place that tells me I can’t have it there. Since this would be a local thing, not federal, I would expect one free warning. At least that is my opinion.

However, the USFS recognizes geocaching as a legitimate outdoor recreation activity and subtly encourages this activity.

Just my $.02,
Keith

 

[psmart]

As a federal agency (USFS) I would expect that they have a single policy instituted.

Although there is national "direction" on many issues, each National Forest has its own operating Plan that defines these issues. This allows for variations in policy based on local issues.

The USFS is still working on implementation of the current Plan, which was just completed in 2005. Some issues, such as Geocaching, do not seem to be specifically addressed in the Plan. (The only mention I could find is a definition in the Glossary.) So I belive the FS is still working to develop rules and guidelines in these areas.

As some have noted, the Geocaching page for the WMNF is blank.

 

[RGF1]

As a federal agency (USFS) I would expect that they have a single policy instituted. It appears that what I have quoted below is an interpretation of that federal policy. While local agencies may or may not like the federal policy or may want to do something different, I would expect that they should first, need a compelling reason to not follow what appears to be the agencies policy. If they are allowed to have a policy (exception) that is different than the standard policy then the onerous is on that local agency to make sure everyone is aware. I should not have to search (hard search) to find out exceptions to a federal rule. My geocache is easy to find (as are all others) on the net. Just a little finger searching is needed. If they want me to remove it all they need do is ask (email address is provided) and tell me the relevant policy in place that tells me I can’t have it there. Since this would be a local thing, not federal, I would expect one free warning. At least that is my opinion.



Just my $.02,
Keith

Keith each national forest implements it's own "Plan" and regualtes the froest according to use and type of uses the lands are set aside for .
Another thing is that while the WMNF seems to get a decent amount of funding others do not . and rely on volunteers to work on the forest !
I know In the White River national forest in Colorado the funding is getting reduced each yearr yet it is one of the most heavily used national forsts in the US rught up there with the WMNF .
I have seen geo cahes as much of the travel is doen off trail and a small cairn hasa way of standing out . I know where there was one in the WMNH that few would vist. I was curios if the 3,000 footer hada good view I knew it would have a view . it has a lot od nice open ledges and is not to hard to get to atall but does not have trail though you can see the unoffical trail from anothe very easy trail . .
I am just not going to say where it is .

Geocaching is harmless I have run acroos more than one out west and a few in the Whites by accident often wondering what is over "there ' usualy a open ledge or a view off trail . As many areas are out west either trail less or the trails are not maintined well if at all. I know of one very close to asumit ofa 14,000 ft peak but the trail that once led to it has been offiaclly abandond due to lack of money but it is easy to find and well used .
But as allways there are some purisst (Ranger Dick who might well be a volunteer ) who find even the slightest sign of man to be some intrunsion . Well what are trails and cairns ?

I have no porblem with it i shpould hope our Forest service personal have more important things to do Um trail maintaincev ? than go and fin geochaches and remove them
I Ifind it Ironic that in the PNW they will goout of thier way to get rid offa geo cahe yet take a look at the clearcuts

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Thanks guys, I appreciate your information. They wouldn’t need to remove mine. If they deem it illegal all they would have to do is email me. I’ll remove it myself. I think it is a promising sign that they are at least thinking about it since they have a page for it.

Hopefully the multi use national forest will have no problems with a geocache if the geocachers maintain them properly as they should be. Like I said also, I don’t see geocaching as compatible with the mandate of the wilderness areas and wouldn’t support them in the wilderness areas but that is just my opinion. YMMV.

Keith

 

[arghman]

Geocaching creates more use of a particular spot above and beyond what would be there if there weren't a geocache. Aside from what USFS policy may be, if it's somewhere on-trail I wouldn't think there would be a problem. If it is off-trail, it may risk damaging natural resources in the area. USFS is in a position to be aware of and manage the natural resources in a particular spot, someone placing a geocache less likely to do so. I would expect that if USFS does approve geocaching then they may reserve some kind of land management right to remove not only the cache but the online publishing of its coordinates (I don't know exactly how the geocaching websites work, I've looked at one a few times).