Giving way on the trail with snowshoes

[sjhbos]

Just curious is the usual ‘give way to uphill hikers’ is affected by snowshoe usage by the parties involved?

Thinking back on my final winter hike of the 2012-13 season, a climb up Mt. Waumbek in March. It was a nice day, a light amount of snow on the ground that was hard packed and no snow forecast. At the parking lot I thought that snowshoes, micro-spikes or bare booting would have all been viable options. I wanted to travel light and fast and went with the micro’s and not snowshoes but as the day progressed I saw a mix of all three of these on the trail.

When descending I turned a corner and there were two hikers on their way up. We were going to cross each other at a narrow point in the trail, made narrower by the hard packed portion of the trail. As they approached I stepped off the trail so that they could continue their climb but on the unpacked portion of the trail, and without snowshoes, I sank down deeply into the snow. They stopped next to me, which I thought was to give me a hand up, but as they were now towering above me, it was used as an opportunity for them to tell me that I should take this as a lesson on the importance of wearing snowshoes with snow on the ground. I apologized and we each went on our way. Looking back on this I can’t help but think that if I was in the same situation again (descending a narrow trail on a hard packed snow without snowshoes and there is softer snow off the trial when I meet an uphill hiker in snowshoes) that I may be less inclined to ‘step aside’ for an uphill hiker.

So I guess my question is does a party who is wearing snowshoes have a greater expectation to step into the soft snow that is off the trail or are the snowshoes not relevant?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

 

[TJsName]

While the importance of wearing snowshoes homily makes sense when a bare-booter is ripping up the packed trail, I don't think it should be used if someone goes off trail to give you the right of way. If the conditions are packed enough for bare-booting, then it's fine and you had nothing to apologize for.

As for this situation, it depends on who you run into. I would hope that the person with snowshoes would step aside to let the bare-booter pass as a courtesy, but I imagine there are some people that follow the 'ascending hiker has the right of way' rule to the logical extreme.

 

[David Metsky]

Just curious is the usual ‘give way to uphill hikers’ is affected by snowshoe usage by the parties involved?

I've never seen any sense in the give way to uphill (or downhill) hikers. What makes sense is giving way to the larger group, so fewer people have to step off the trail.

Since running into other hikers on a snowy trail is a common occurrence you should plan accordingly. I don't see why you'd expect another group to step off the trail because you didn't bring appropriate gear. Having said that, I would do whatever was reasonable to avoid making another hiker wallow in deep snow.

Unless it was on a ski trail, in which case I'd probably push them over into the snow.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Where did 'uphill has the right of way' come from, given the uphill hiker is probably moving more slowly, and is more likely to want to stop and rest? I just don't get it.

(If anyone really cares, they can search for the poll that was conducted here, and a LONG thread).

Sunday, on KHP, we yielded to a truck! It was going downhill, and it definitely had the right of way!

 

[TDawg]

When climbing, I welcome the quick breather that letting the descending hiker pass affords me.

 

[TJsName]

Yeah, the only thing I could think of was trying not to disrupt a climber's ""groove". Perhaps this was more of an issue with mountaineering when passing was more of a technical feat? Overall, I enjoy the break too.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

sjhbos - If you'd been wearing microspikes but carrying snowshoes, I doubt those two would have busted your chops. But, if you didn't, and seeing you standing up to your crotch in soft snow - then many of us would think you got what you deserved!

Judging snow conditions up high based upon what you observe at the trailhead is a common error, unfortunately. Despite the fact that you wanted to go fast - and who doesn't - doesn't entitle you to posthole the trail should conditions change. The question isn't who had the right of way - there really are no "rules" - it's about preserving a shared resource - a smooth snowshoe track that took LOTS of work to create. By hiking a well-broken trail you implicitly agree to leave it in as good - or better - shape than when you found, even if it means your hike may take 15 minutes longer.

Granted - in April and May conditions may be such that microspikes are all that are needed and snowshoes can be left in your vehicle. A scan of the New Hampshire Hiking Trail Conditions page will show when those conditions have been reached. Until then - best to carry the 'shoes.

 

[vinovampire]

The tradition of the downhill traveler yielding to the uphill traffic makes a lot of sense to me. I've seem way too many downhill-headed, out-of-control "trail runners" and hikers on the trails around here (although it seemed even worse out west). There are several benefits of this system. First, it promotes the idea and somewhat assures that the downhill traffic is under control. If the person heading down has to pull over and stop, then they have to maintain control.

Second, if a fall does occur, it is less likely that the uphill traveler will fall into the downhill-headed traffic. For example, just this past weekend I had a man slid right into me as he was descending without any traction on an icy trail. Even though I was heading uphill, I yielded to him and stepped off trail. As I was standing off the trail, he slipped and he came sliding into me. I had microspikes and poles, and was doing fine on the ice-covered trail. I broke his fall and managed to stay upright on the ice. If he had yield properly, he may have still fallen later, but he wouldn't have hit me. If I had fallen, I would have slipped backwards, and he would have been out of my path.


Ice on a less step section of the trail

In reality, on the trail, I tend to yield to other groups, simply because most of them don't know the etiquette/tradition and I'd rather just let them go by than worry about it. Still, I think we'd all be better off if downhill-headed group yielded properly.

With regard to the question of preparedness, there's no reason why hikers who were responsible enough to be prepared from the conditions should have to yield to you, simply because you chose to go "fast and light", and went unprepared. Again, during this past weekend on the icy trail, I'd estimate that only about of the people I saw were properly equipped with light traction, even though the conditions clearly called for that type of gear. The solution that these unprepared hikers went with wasn't turn around and get the proper gear, it was (a) slip and slide dangerously or (b) ignore LNT principles and stomp the entire way up the mountain just off the trail.

We all make mistakes, but from your post it sounds like you learned the wrong lesson. Rather than say: "I may be less inclined to ‘step aside’ for an uphill hiker",
you could have written: I made a mistake and next time I'll be better prepared for the conditions.

 

[hikerbrian]

Oh god, what a couple of complete douche bags. Look, don't let a couple of outliers cloud your opinion of the norm. Most people recognize that it's a personal choice as to whether you prefer to wear snowshoes or bareboot. This holier-than-thou attitude with hiking in general, that you must carry the Exact Gear, and do everything the Exact Way, otherwise you are Unsafe - it's ridiculous. Sure, try not to screw up the trail, and make good decisions based on what you have in your toolbox, then go do what you want to do. I keep trying to picture you, stepping off the trail into deep snow for some guys to pass, and all they can do is bitch about your gear choices. What a couple of jokers.

As to the original question, I don't feel the yielding situation changes based on gear, although if I had snowshoes and the person I was running into didn't, I'd likely yield.

My understanding of the origin of the "yield to uphill hikers" rule is based on the possibility and consequence of a fall. If you're on somewhat steep terrain, a person coming downhill, in the event they were to lose their footing, could injure hikers just below them during the fall. On the other hand, hikers coming uphill, in the even they were to lose their footing, would likely have no effect on the yielding hikers, they'd just slip into the hill.

 

[erugs]

My take is that there is/should be give and take on the trail as far as who steps aside. One can usually tell enough in advance on who that will be. I've seen people posthole and have been guilty of it myself once or twice and it really does make the trail a mess. I would be tempted to say something to someone who could have kept the trail in better shape but chose not to and applaud Kevin's response rather than hikerbrian's which comes across as more self-serving than being a good neighbor on the trail.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Thanks, Ellen. And I'd hasten to add that I'm hardly blameless regarding postholing. Done a bit of my share, too. Would like to think that all the trail-breaking I've done would more than offset it, but thats a judgment others will have to make.

Hikerbrian - I too was startled by your comments. Does that point of view reflect your personal vision of "Freedom of the Hills"? Do whatever you want, whenever you want, regardless of the impact on others? I'd argue that if your toolbox doesn't contain the proper tools, then you wait until they do.

 

[TJsName]

Just to keep things on track regarding sjhbos's original post, it sounds like conditions that day permitted people to make due with just spikes. The 'post holing' he did was off trail, which shouldn't affect things too much. It would be courteous for a snowshoer to let the bare booter pass. I think we can sum everything else as:

1.) If the trail isn't packed, then people should wear snowshoes to help pack the trail. If the trail is packed, then bare boots are fine. If you're not sure, bring your shoes. If you were sure, but were wrong, then re-evaluate your methods.
2.) As winter hiking becomes more popular, there will always be 'newbs' learning things the hard way. Being friendly can go a long way - no need to be critical or defensive.
3.) There are no laws about this, so people are allowed to be jerks. And people are allowed to be jerks back. However, this won't do the trail much good either way.

 

[skiguy]

The question isn't who had the right of way - there really are no "rules" - it's about preserving a shared resource - a smooth snowshoe track that took LOTS of work to create. By hiking a well-broken trail you implicitly agree to leave it in as good - or better - shape than when you found, even if it means your hike may take 15 minutes longer.

I totally agree with Mr. Rooney and said with class. Let's all remember we all need to learn. It sounds as if you were scolded a bit sjhsboss. If that was the case the only one that should have been giving apologies IMO were the guys on snowshoes.

 

[hikerbrian]

I would be tempted to say something to someone who could have kept the trail in better shape but chose not to and applaud Kevin's response rather than hikerbrian's which comes across as more self-serving than being a good neighbor on the trail.

Rather presumptuous, no?
1. Nowhere in the original post did sjhbos say that s/he post-holed at any point anywhere on the trail. For you to suggest that wearing snowshoes would have kept the trail in better condition is pure speculation on your part, and probably not even accurate: barebooting a packed out trail on Wambek in March is unlikely to lead to any postholing at all. And wearing snowshoes to step off trail for others to pass would be unlikely to prevent sinking to one's crotch anyway.
2. Self-serving? What exactly do you know about my personal choice of footwear in any given snow situation? Where did I say, "I prefer to bareboot, so people should be allowed to bareboot?" Were you to hike with me, you would realize that I stronly prefer to wear snowshoes rather than barebooting, even if I could bareboot without postholing. I find snowshoes give me better traction, and I find myself to be much more efficient with them on. I've carried snowshoes on my pack on bare ground down low, just so I could use them through half a foot of packed snow up high. For you to suggest that my comment is self-serving is unwarranted and inaccurate.

 

[erugs]

Hikerbrian - I am not going to argue with you except to say that my statement was based on how your message came across to me, and add that I was not the first to mention the idea of postholing. Please don't say that my opinion is no less valued that yours. If you can state yours, then I can state mine. Why not?

 

[hikerbrian]

Hikerbrian - I too was startled by your comments. Does that point of view reflect your personal vision of "Freedom of the Hills"?.

I don't see any overlap whatsoever between this thread and that one. If you have more to add on the Freedom of the New England Hills thread, you should feel free to do so.

Do whatever you want, whenever you want, regardless of the impact on others?

Come on, seriously? To quote my post exactly:

try not to screw up the trail, and make good decisions based on what you have in your toolbox, then go do what you want to do.

Nowhere did I suggest folks should feel free to behave in a way that negatively impacts others. Ridiculous and insulting.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Oh god, what a couple of complete douche bags.

Wow, I don't recall anyone referring to someone as "complete douche bag" in quite some time on these boards! I just looked at your profile - "Occupation: Medicinal chemist" - are you labeling the two in question based upon your professional training, or as a layman?

 

[DayTrip]

Always amazed at the excrutiating level of debate that ensues from such seemingly simple inquiries on this forum. Most entertaining indeed! I never imagined so much deep philosophical thought was going on inside of the heads of the people I pass on the trail when I'm hiking. I must be doing it wrong....

 

[TDawg]

Always amazed at the excrutiating level of debate that ensues from such seemingly simple inquiries on this forum. Most entertaining indeed! I never imagined so much deep philosophical thought was going on inside of the heads of the people I pass on the trail when I'm hiking. I must be doing it wrong....

Passing someone on the trail will never be the same again.

 

[TJsName]

Passing someone on the trail will never be the same again.

Seriously. I know you should carry a canister stove in winter, but I'm thinking of packing HEET instead.