Goggle fog

[DougPaul]

Doug - how do you suggest pre-warming ones goggles in a manner where they aren't moist at the same time? Plastic bag inside one's layers? Oh yeah, I only wear one layer to tree line most days Now what?

A plastic bag should work (assuming they aren't already fogged or iced).

If you have enough time, you can do it without the plastic bag. The cold goggles will fog up and then may dry off after they have warmed up. This can also dry off/deice fogged/iced goggles.

I don't generally bother with the plastic bag.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

What exactly do you do to prevent the situations you guys are talking about here? Insure that the foam from the goggles touches only your face and not the balaclava? Then you get some minimal amount of exposed skin. What happens if the balaclava is flush to the foam, but not underneath it? Does the foam really let air flow through there without letting exhaled moisture flow through?

In truly bad frostbite conditions, you don't want to have any exposed skin. Thus if you put your goggles on first, your facemask/balaclava must seal around your goggles. (And you need a shielded breathing hole for your nose or nose and mouth.)

If you put your facemask on first, then the pressure from the goggles has to seal the facemask (under the goggle rim) or you will get exhaled air into the goggle. (Exhaled air under the goggles is guaranteed to fog.)

When you exhale, you need to aim it away from your goggles or glasses because it will fog them. Your nose points down (ok), but if you exhale through your mouth make sure you aim the air away from your eyes (down seems the easiest to me).

How do you get this to work properly in the field? Do some fittings in front of a mirror and debug your system as best you can. And then test it outside on a cold day or while hiking. If it doesn't work, try to figure out why and fix it or try something else.

Those of us who wear glasses have 4 surfaces to fog instead of just 2... (Prewarming glasses before putting one's goggles on can make a big difference--otherwise you are likely to start with instantly fogged glasses.) On the other hand, glasses protect one's eyes well enough that a glasses wearer can get by with just glasses in conditions that drive non-glasses wearers to use goggles.

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

If you put your facemask on first, then the pressure from the goggles has to seal the facemask (under the goggle rim) or you will get exhaled air into the goggle. (Exhaled air under the goggles is guaranteed to fog.)

So, the foam is really not for breathability but to be completely crushed flat against your skin to seal the space between your eyes and the lens? Otherwise I'm not seeing any real way to prevent exhaled air from getting in. And, what is the point of a fan in this case if air cannot flow through?

Maybe I really need to tighten the strap more?

Is it ever actually freezing on the outside of the lens? (I never actually checked - once frozen I just stop using the darn things.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

So, the foam is really not for breathability but to be completely crushed flat against your skin to seal the space between your eyes and the lens? Otherwise I'm not seeing any real way to prevent exhaled air from getting in. And, what is the point of a fan in this case if air cannot flow through?

My goggles have thin foam around the sides to provide ventilation (while filtering out snow) and a separate narrow foam strip that sits against my face.

Maybe I really need to tighten the strap more?

You will have to figure it out for yourself--it isn't something anyone else can do without actually seeing the equipment and how it fits together and how it fits your face.

Is it ever actually freezing on the outside of the lens? (I never actually checked - once frozen I just stop using the darn things.

Either side can fog or ice up. Usually the interior is harder to keep clear. Next time it happens take a look before putting the goggles away.

Exhale upwards while wearing goggles--you will most likely see the fog immediately. Certainly works with glasses...

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

And so my one unanswered question all along here is --

Does anyone reasonably believe the foam provides ventilation without allowing exhaled moist warm air in? I mean that's the claim here (right?) - keep the breath out by keeping the thing sealed.

Tim

 

[Craig]

Tim,

I have found with my physiology, if I’m working (climbing uphill) I create a lot of heat.
No matter how cold it is, if my skin is exposed to the wind it will not be moist. If I put on any kind of a wind block, I will sweat. I have to be diligent to make sure I vent any parts of my body that have wind block e.g. open the zip on my jacket, open the thigh zips on my pants etc. I do not wear wind block on my hands, head or neck unless the wind is biting.

Having said that, in terms of goggles fogging my problem was two fold:
1. When working (climbing uphill) you breathe harder and deeper and the hot, moist air is drawn into the bottom vents of the goggles. If the updraft isn’t strong enough, than the moist warm air will form on the inside of the goggle lenses. Frost or ice does not form on the outside of the lens.
2. Once I put on a balaclava, hood and goggles, my face will sweat. Because you can’t expose your face to the wind to vent, that moist warm air will be attracted to the goggle lenses also.

Both those items combined conspire to create problems for me.

IMO, if you seal the goggles so air doesn’t get in then the moist heat from your face will fog them up.

I hike a lot with my brother and he wears regular double lens goggles and has no problems. That pisses me off.

 

[DougPaul]

Does anyone reasonably believe the foam provides ventilation without allowing exhaled moist warm air in? I mean that's the claim here (right?) - keep the breath out by keeping the thing sealed.

WHICH FOAM? Skin seal or vent covering?

Air under the facemask is warm and moist. Exhaled air, which is even warmer and moister, can easily get under the facemask. You don't want this air to get under the goggles.

Outside air is generally cold and dry. You want some of this air to circulate under your goggles to dissipate the moisture under your goggles.

The outside of your goggles will not generally fog unless you exhale upwards on them.

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

WHICH FOAM? Skin seal or vent covering?

Either one. I don't mean to be facetious here - It sounds like I sweat like Craig does (maybe more ) and I just need to try: pre-warming, not keeping them on my head, and concentrating on breathing down. I have your basic Oakley ski goggle. It has two layers of foam where it contacts my face, and a thin foam over plastic with holes around the eyes. If the air gets in to circulate, then the exhaled air will get in too, to some degree. There are some suggestions above for minimizing that which perhaps I will try. I'm particularly interested in low-/no-fogging headwear suggestions - hood/not, hat/not, balaclava/not, etc. No hood would increase circulation of air, especially if it is windy, which is when I want the goggles the most.

What started me on this thread here was the claim that you should keep the exhaled air out - which I get - it's the "how" that's still up in the air - and it sounds like it is highly individual. To all you non-sweaters I say, well, I'll be nice and not say anything.

I do vent the zips on my shell. On the Twins 9 days ago, the wind on my right side made it hurt from the cold - I had to close that pit zip, leaving the left one open was a good thing. Maybe the hood is too much and I should go with the balaclava and a hat.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

Either one. I don't mean to be facetious here - It sounds like I sweat like Craig does (maybe more ) and I just need to try: pre-warming, not keeping them on my head, and concentrating on breathing down. I have your basic Oakley ski goggle. It has two layers of foam where it contacts my face, and a thin foam over plastic with holes around the eyes. If the air gets in to circulate, then the exhaled air will get in too, to some degree. There are some suggestions above for minimizing that which perhaps I will try. I'm particularly interested in low-/no-fogging headwear suggestions - hood/not, hat/not, balaclava/not, etc. No hood would increase circulation of air, especially if it is windy, which is when I want the goggles the most.

What started me on this thread here was the claim that you should keep the exhaled air out - which I get - it's the "how" that's still up in the air - and it sounds like it is highly individual. To all you non-sweaters I say, well, I'll be nice and not say anything.

When active, I put out a lot of heat too. In general, if it is cold and windy enough that I need goggles (ie my eyes are tearing or there is a high risk of frostbite), I need a balaclava and perhaps my hood up too. (I don't use the hood unless I have to--it cuts my hearing and can interfere with vision. I'm perfectly happy to use a hat or a balaclava.) Under such conditions, I can usually dissipate enough heat from my body. (Putting a facemask and balaclava on can surprise one with how much heat one normally dissipates from the face and head.)

As for getting it all to work, I listed the principles in my previous post and each individual just has to work on it to figure out the details that work for him. There have certainly times when I could only see through part of my goggles. On the last part of a winter hike up Avery Peak (Bigelow), I was the only one with clear vision out of (any) part of his goggles so I led and the others followed my blurry shadow...

Doug

 

[jfb]

When necessary to block all exposed skin, I use one of these, which I have modified by removing all the material between the little holes. The masque goes under my balaclava. Goggles go over the balaclava, with the foam seal against my skin and over the top of the masque. If I have to remove the goggles temporarily, I drop them straight down and let them hang under my chin. When I take them off, they go inside the cotton storage bag. If snow gets inside the goggles, I blow it out. If moisture freezes inside, I take them off and put them back in my pack. When I get somewhere where they can thaw, I lightly touch the water drops with a tissue or cotton bandanna.

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

On a winter trip up Mt. Washington my goggles completely froze over. Visibility was limited that day and in order to find the cairns I had to move the goggles up so I could see something. I of course got some frost bite. I asked a pro-skier friend what I could do. His response was interesting.

He said that even the most expensive goggles are eventually going to fog over and perhaps freeze depending on the conditions. His suggestion was to carry two pair of goggles and to keep one under the jacket to thaw them out. Then alternate them. It does work although they do have to be wiped out. There is no way I know of to 'air dry' goggles at -40.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

His suggestion was to carry two pair of goggles and to keep one under the jacket to thaw them out. Then alternate them. It does work although they do have to be wiped out. There is no way I know of to 'air dry' goggles at -40.

How many milliseconds do you have to wipe them out before they re-freeze?

What do Himalayan climbers do?

Tim

 

[Ed'n Lauky]

How many milliseconds do you have to wipe them out before they re-freeze?

The trick is to work quickly with the goggles still down inside the jacket.

What do Himalayan climbers do? Tim

Good question!

 

[JohnL]

What do Himalayan climbers do?

It appears that Stephen Venables takes his goggles off when they get, uh, frosted over. http://www.stephenvenables.com/

JohnL

 

[Oldmanwinter]

I'm trying it

His suggestion was to carry two pair of goggles and to keep one under the jacket to thaw them out. Then alternate them. It does work although they do have to be wiped out.

I already own two pair of goggles (one much better than the other) but it never occurred to me to take both, considering everything else I carry, the weight is minimal, thanks for the suggestion! I'll report back on the outcome.

 

[Brewster]

balaclava to try

I've used a balaclava with some success in cold, windy, above tree line situations that contains a foam pad that fits in the nose piece straddling the nose preventing exhaled air from going up through to the goggles. Additionally, there is a module (thermal conversion) through which one breaths, actually warming the air breathed in. It can take some getting used to. I only use it when situations are very unpleasant as it does keep me a lot warmer than with a normal face mask as I'm breathing in warm air. The product is called a PSOLAR. http://www.psolar.com/ It substantially reduces the fogging of my glasses and goggles in those conditions. When the wind drops I just pull the face part down below my chin.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

What about the wrap-around face masks? Some of them look like they have a pretty big nose covering - perhaps to help deflect exhaled air downward?

I would think a straight neck warmer, or balaclava without a breathing port / nose port, would be even worse - no deflection at all, or maybe even upwards deflection?

Tim

 

[nundagao]

Here's a tip I got from a guy at EMS (he said someone on the luge team told him about it). Any brand of shampoo that contains glycerin makes a good antifogging agent. Spread it on the inside surface of your goggles with your fingers and then wipe it off with good paper towel (like Bounty) that won't scratch the plastic. Don't try to remove all of it or wash it off; that would defeat the purpose. It works at least as well as anything else I've tried.

 

[Hobbitling]

I would just like to say that "Gogglefog" would be an awesome band name.
and "Views from the top" would be their album name.

I use some fogproofer made by rainex. work's pretty well.

 

[DougPaul]

Here's a tip I got from a guy at EMS (he said someone on the luge team told him about it). Any brand of shampoo that contains glycerin makes a good antifogging agent. Spread it on the inside surface of your goggles with your fingers and then wipe it off with good paper towel (like Bounty) that won't scratch the plastic. Don't try to remove all of it or wash it off; that would defeat the purpose. It works at least as well as anything else I've tried.

There was an article in a '70s hiking/climbing magazine describing a NASA formula for a spacesuit goggle antifog which contained glycerin and dishsoap. I wrote it down, but have since lost it and have been unable to find it again.

I hunted online for the info 2 years ago and found nothing useful. However, I found some potentially useful info this time:
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-fog
(general info), use detergent or shaving cream. Doesn't mention glycerin, but it is found in shaving cream.
* http://www.homegardenguides.com/garden-forum/311609-post24.html
"Glycerie soap at a buck or so for a bar works great. Rub a little on each side of the lens and polish it off."
* There is also a NASA patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3856534.html. The summary is "A composition for the prevention of fogging on surfaces comprising a surface active agent, water, and an oil time extender." Good luck figuring the rest out...
* And two corresponding NASA technical reports (abstracts only): http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?N=4294914349

Doug