Got my GPSmap 60CSX yesterday

[Mohamed Ellozy]

I am the proud owner of a GPSmap 76 CS (not X) which works reasonably well with an external antenna on my cap. Still, even with the antenna I occasionally get a "lost satellites" message, and more often find gaps in tracks. So I finally bit the bullet and bought a 60 CSX.

I received it yesterday, too late to test it out on a hike. But I was impressed; as soon as I put in the batteries and switched it on it started seeing satellites (indoors!!) and within a minute or so had a reasonable fix. I tried it under tree cover in the local woods, and it did not seem to lose any accuracy. Two other nice things that I noted: the batteries are much easier to remove than those in my old GPSr, which requires a key to lever them out. Also, when connected to the USB port it receives power from the computer, so no need to keep switching it off to save battery (minor point, but still nice).

Today, in spite of the rain, I went up Mt. Tecumseh. I did not bring the antenna, and kept the GPSr in its pouch attached to the strap of my pack. I suppose that my body must have been blocking about half its "field of vision". In spite of that whenever I checked the precision was 40 feet or better, and looking at the track on my computer I find no holes.

The basic functions are almost identical to those on the 76CS, even though the keys are in different locations. I have not yet got around to learning how the card memory works, and will obviously get a bigger card than the one which came with the unit.

All in all it looks like a good buy!

 

[Peakbagr]

Mo,

The removable memory cards are really nice. The only issue I'd have is that the card holder does not look like it would stand up to regular swapping in and outs.

The solution I found was to get a 512Mb card. That allows me to load every topo from upstate NY + almost all of New England. You basically select the topo(s) you want up to almost the capacity of the card. Nice thing is that you can save your choice of topos to a folder on your hard drive. Name and designate as many different combos of maps from any of your Garmin software.
Then, instead of swapping cards, all you need to do is open the named folder containing the particular set of topos, and transfer them to the GPSr. The transfer then overwrites what you previously had in there.

The Garmin tech said thats a good compromise to having a number of large cards and have to keep moving them in and out.
The 60CSX will accept up to a 1Gb card, and I understand, a 2Gb might work.
I think the 512Mb is a good compromise as I believe the huge capacity cards slow the screen refresh rate.
One thing you might try, though. It takes quite a while to transfer lots of topos to the card using the direct GPS to USB connection. For some reason, Garmin chose not to use a USB 2.0 connection which would have been way faster. For that reason you MIGHT want to use a card reader as that bypasses the 'regular' USB bottleneck.

One last thing. If you use National Geographic Software as your on-computer route setting, think about spending the $19 upgrade to "TOPO Steets and 3D Views". It has some nice map upgrades, but its main feature is that it allows you to use your USB cable to upload and download routes and waypoints. The older version of Natl Geo software only allows a serial cable connection.

 

[CaptCaper]

Glad to hear it Mohamed. I've always been a Garmin fan. Always had good luck with them and never a failure even after running it all day every day all summer for a few years.

The guys over at teh Geo Cache fourms are raving about the 60CSX. Claiming 2 meter accuracy with WAAS. Make sure you have the latest firmware in it.

NewZealand an exteme GeoCacher said to me today "Since firmware 3.0 and sirfware 2.7 I don't have any problems with bad altitude or altitude jumping with the CSX.

The tunnelproblem is also solved as far as I can tell (I'm using the unit since february and firmware 2.4 - *sigh*).

I don't believe that they changed the processor in the later units.
I'm quite happy with my CSX now, but still await some features which make better use of the SD-card (e.g. for routes and number of routepoints, lifting the map segment restriction, possibility to display the SD-card-tracks on the units map display, ...)."

I also have a 60CS and have been think about a CSX but they have a rebate on them now untill Xmas and that usually means there coming out with something new so I may hold off and make a real jump if it happens.

It's funny I've found my 60CS to hold a fix with my Gilsoon antenna. I just did the SugarLoaf's for the first time Thur. and the track was flawless. Although that was an easy hike.
I do have to put a lobster band around the unit to hold the right angle mcx connector in good while hiking.

Even with the X I would use the antenna as it would get the antenna up higher, and increase signal strength some. Also I believe the tipping of the stock antenna while hiking affects the signal more than a Gilsson on top of a pack. I'll try it with out but am not to hopeful for the accuracy and steady data I've been getting. It doesn't bother me as the wire and antenna are flush with my packs.

Capt.

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

One thing you might try, though. It takes quite a while to transfer lots of topos to the card using the direct GPS to USB connection. For some reason, Garmin chose not to use a USB 2.0 connection which would have been way faster. For that reason you MIGHT want to use a card reader as that bypasses the 'regular' USB bottleneck.

Looks like a good idea, but I know absolutely nothing about card readers. How much do they cost (approx.) and exactly what are they called so I can search for one?

One last thing. If you use National Geographic Software as your on-computer route setting, think about spending the $19 upgrade to "TOPO Steets and 3D Views". It has some nice map upgrades, but its main feature is that it allows you to use your USB cable to upload and download routes and waypoints. The older version of Natl Geo software only allows a serial cable connection.

I bought it because the National Geographic tech support told me that was the only way to download USB from my GPSr. The "nice map upgrades" unfortunately include red lines in places where there are no trails

Even with the X I would use the antenna as it would get the antenna up higher, and increase signal strength some.

Sure, just wanted to test it out. Since I have the antenna and the baseball cap with steel washer on top there is no reason not to use them.

The guys over at teh Geo Cache fourms are raving about the 60CSX. Claiming 2 meter accuracy with WAAS. Make sure you have the latest firmware in it.

I think you started a recent thread there. My unit says Software Version 3.00, GPS Software Version 2.80.

 

[DougPaul]

Today, in spite of the rain, I went up Mt. Tecumseh. I did not bring the antenna, and kept the GPSr in its pouch attached to the strap of my pack. I suppose that my body must have been blocking about half its "field of vision". In spite of that whenever I checked the precision was 40 feet or better, and looking at the track on my computer I find no holes.

The precision (proper name EPE = estimated position error) has little practical meaning in situations such as this. There is more than one definition, but the meaning is that the position error is less than the EPE with a probability of about 68--95% (depending on the particular definition). It is estimated by multiplying the "ideal error" by a factor (>1) which accounts for the effect of the satellite constellation. It assumes perfect satellite signals and therfore does not take reflection, diffraction, multipath etc into account, any of which can significantly increase the error.

Yes, a lower EPE is preferable than a higher EPE, but it doesn't mean that the error is necessarily any smaller.

If you wish, you can think of the EPE as a lower bound on the probabalistic error. An upper bound on the error would be very useful, a lower bound just risks misleading people. (And judging by the amount of noise that people make about it, many are mislead.)

The only way to reliably assess accuracy is to compare the GPS position with an accurately surveyed mark. Repeatability is much easier to asess: just run the GPS at a fixed location for an extended period and look at the scatter. (Errors are correlated for an hour or two and should repeat about every 24 hrs (the satellite constellation repeats every 23 hrs 56 min), so the best way would be to record data for 24 hrs and look at the scatter.)

Peakbagr:
The 60CSX is reported to work with 2GB cards. (FWIW, the entire US Topo is about 1.6 GB.)

Also do not get ultra memory cards--there have been reports of the cards being damaged in the GPS. The standard speed cards work fine.

CaptCaper:
See my earlier comment about accuracy. WAAS is also of limited help in less than ideal signal conditions (and can even decrease accuracy in some situations). Agreed that one will generally get a more accurate track with a properly located external antenna than one will get with a typical near one's body carrying location for the GPS--even with a 60CSx.

Mohamed:
Enjoy your new toy--I've been wondering if I should spring for one myself... Not that I have any real need for its extra sensitivity... Or maybe I'm just waiting until Garmin fixes the new lithium battery problem.

I suggest that you look into a 1 or 2 GB card. You will only need to load maps for the NE once, because it will hold all of them.

Doug

 

[Paradox]

So I finally bit the bullet and bought a 60 CSX.

Heh, heh, heh. You won't regret it.

 

[CaptCaper]

.I think you started a recent thread there. My unit says Software Version 3.00, GPS Software Version 2.80.

Yes I did. Those guys are the best at GPS and software. They rely on their GPS's and they are simialar to us in that often they are in the woods and mountains.
They have actual field experience vs. just gathering info off the web. If you get confused or stumped go there and search or post, they'll have the anwers.
I'd like to get together with you for a short hike and compare the two tracks afterwards just to see how sensitive this X really is. If your interested let me know.

Capt.

 

[KevCon223]

as soon as I put in the batteries and switched it on it started seeing satellites (indoors!!) and within a minute or so had a reasonable fix. I tried it under tree cover in the local woods, and it did not seem to lose any accuracy. Today, in spite of the rain, I went up Mt. Tecumseh. I did not bring the antenna, and kept the GPSr in its pouch attached to the strap of my pack. I suppose that my body must have been blocking about half its "field of vision". In spite of that whenever I checked the precision was 40 feet or better, and looking at the track on my computer I find no holes.

I always keep My 60CS in the pouch on the side of My pack, and it always maintains reception. I've owned a few GPS models in the past, but this is My hands down favorite. With just the built in memory, I store pretty much all of the topo maps for the Northeast.
Kevin

 

[CaptCaper]

I always keep My 60CS in the pouch on the side of My pack, and it always maintains reception. I've owned a few GPS models in the past, but this is My hands down favorite. With just the built in memory, I store pretty much all of the topo maps for the Northeast.
Kevin

It is a very good unit and you can get a good deal now on Ebay on them as guys are upgrading. I love the highlighted active track in choice of colors. They've fixed all the bugs that came with it.

I believe they have cornered the market with this 60 series. The next run will have a shaded or 3d screen I believe.Maybe next spring.

As I said above I've never had a problem with the CS in keeping a accurate track,signal in the mountains. I've reloaded the track and gone back in the winter with no sign of a trail or blazes and it would keep me right on the trail fairly well with more open trails,ridges,summits,right on the button.

Although I've always found it's best with WAAS on have a Gilsson on top of the pack. And to run it for at least an hour before the hike starts.

Mohamed.
Heads can turn and bob around too much so mounting it there is asking for signal loss.

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

Mohamed.
Heads can turn and bob around too much so mounting it there is asking for signal loss.

Interesting way to look at it! I thought that putting it on my head would maximize its "field of vision", as putting it on top of my pack would still leave a large area obstructed by my upper body.

 

[DougPaul]

Heads can turn and bob around too much so mounting it there is asking for signal loss.

Interesting way to look at it! I thought that putting it on my head would maximize its "field of vision", as putting it on top of my pack would still leave a large area obstructed by my upper body.

An interesting experiment is to hold a GPS in your hand (GPS oriented properly and hand turned out from your body to minimize the blocking) and walk along 1) holding your hand stationary or 2) swinging your arms as you would normally during a fast walk.

Case 2 is much harder for the GPS (due to the unsteady motion) and its accuracy can suffer. (GPSes are designed to handle steady motion.)

Generally, there is less unsteady motion of one's head. A short pole above one's pack might be a bit steadier, but I don't know if the difference would be enough to be noticeable in the GPS track.

I personally suspect that the better skyview from carrying an antenna on one's head overcomes any disadvantages from head motion.

Doug

 

[CaptCaper]

Interesting way to look at it! I thought that putting it on my head would maximize its "field of vision", as putting it on top of my pack would still leave a large area obstructed by my upper body.

I'm sorry I said bobbing around. You probably hike very smoothly. Not like me tieing my shoelaces every ten minutes.

You mentioned about signal loss so thats the first thing that came to mind besides not rubber banding the antenna like I have to do. Given I don't know the brand you have and connector on it. (the one draw back to the 60 series is with an right angle mcx it can losen the connection.)

My packs both day pack and overnite's ride high on me so my head doesn't have much affect. I usually try to avoid geting on all fours as I probably wouldn't be able to get up So the top of the pack is steady and high.


Just when I stop I can only go into the pack for a short time before signal loss. What I do if I have to dig deep is unclip the antenna from the gps and leave it standing somewhere. I don't mind as I like the unbroken track.

Don't you just love sitting there looking at the summits and using the summit waypoints you put in the waypoint list and seeing the bearing and distance to them knowing which one your looking at for sure? Which is closest etc.instantly?

Or better yet,finding the closest Dunkin Donut's for the ride home.

Good luck...

 

[DougPaul]

You mentioned about signal loss so thats the first thing that came to mind besides not rubber banding the antenna like I have to do. Given I don't know the brand you have and connector on it. (the one draw back to the 60 series is with an right angle mcx it can losen the connection.)

That connector is a problem... A straight connector would stick out and be vulnerable to damage and the 90 degree connector is vulnerable to damage from a pull on the cable. The rubber band on the cable for strain relief is as good a solution as any.

BTW, there have been reports of the case breaking near the screw mount for the mounting clip. Many (including me) don't use the clip mount for this reason.

My packs both day pack and overnite's ride high on me so my head doesn't have much affect. I usually try to avoid geting on all fours as I probably wouldn't be able to get up So the top of the pack is steady and high.

The more you lean forward, the more your head stays out of the way...

Should work fairly well on a high pack. I have done the same using a pack that comes up to the base of my neck. Since I have to lean forward to balance and am generally looking down at the trail, I figure my head shouldn't block too much of the sky. (Certainly less than if the antenna were on top of my pack shoulder strap.) However, on top of my head is probably somewhat better. Haven't compared the tracks.

Just when I stop I can only go into the pack for a short time before signal loss.

The signal loss is immediate. The GPS enters a dead reckoning mode to delay reporting the signal loss.

A few earlier posts on dead reckoning:
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?p=124695&#post124695
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?p=106647#post106647
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?p=81711#post81711

Doug

 

[Mohamed Ellozy]

Today, in spite of the rain, I went up Mt. Tecumseh. I did not bring the antenna, and kept the GPSr in its pouch attached to the strap of my pack. I suppose that my body must have been blocking about half its "field of vision". In spite of that whenever I checked the precision was 40 feet or better, and looking at the track on my computer I find no holes.

Today I took it up Mt. tecumseh from Tripoli Road with the antenna on my bobbing head Granted, the "precision" is not an accurate measure, but today it was around 20 feet versus 40 feet without the antenna on Saturday.

I hope to do something more scientific, either alone or with others as part of a "bakeoff", but in the meanwhile I believe that the improvement is definitely worth the small hassle of using the antenna.

 

[Pammy]

Topo Map worth the money?

Hello. I received a Garmin 60CSx for Christmas (LUCKY ME! Bought and loaded the City Navigator. Is the Top Map worth the money? My brother has a GPS (Not a Garmin) and he said only the major trails show up on his map. Do you find that most of the trails in the White Mountains are found on the Topo Map? What reasons do you use the Top Map rather than just marking the location of your car, the location when you come out of Treeline, and keeping tracks turned on? My friend has an older Garmin, maybe 2 or 3 years old, and has a hard time getting the satelites in the woods. I'm hoping the CSx works better in the woods like it claims.

Thanks!
Pam

 

[DougPaul]

Is the Top Map worth the money?

I have both US Topo and Topo 24K East. IMO, both are worth the money. The GPS will be much more useful with the maps. All of the above (plus your road maps) can be loaded in the GPS simultaneously. You can also purchase larger microSD cards (up to 2GB) to store more data than the original 64MB card.

US topo covers the entire US at a scale of 1:100K.
http://shop.garmin.com/accessory.jsp?sku=010-10215-02

Topo 24K East covers selected areas of the eastern US (the AT, parks, etc) at a scale of 1:24K.
http://shop.garmin.com/accessory.jsp?sku=010-10449-00

You can preview the maps though http://www.garmin.com/cartography/.

Both are based upon the standard USGS topos.

Doug

 

[JCE]

I agree with DougPaul, the Garmin Topo maps for the GPS are worth it.

I've used the GPS around the White Mts and then went up to do North Brother and Fort but forgot to load those maps onto the GPS - I had paper maps and such, but not being able to "see" where things were on the GPS made me feel disconnected. I like to be able to look at the the GPS and see where I've been (relative to the trails) and where trail junctions are to be. The Topo maps show the contour lines and peaks. Without the Topos loaded, I wasn't able to set a waypoint on Fort, so I couldn't see how close I was getting other than just with the eyeball. Don't get me wrong, I've got the maps and compass and such, but I really enjoy the GPS alot and the Topos make it more fun.

/JCE

 

[Peakbagr]

Ditto on the Garmin maps. Garmin US Topo has the entire continental United States plus Alaska and Hawaii at 100 scale.
And Garmin US Topo - National Parks East has the ADKs, Greens, Whites and all the eastern US National Parks.

I use the much more computer friendly National Geographic Northeastern States topos on the computer to look up maps and plot routes, then upload to the Garmin 60CSx where you view things on the Garmin software.
Its the best combination.

And Pammy, you'll love the 60CSx. I picked up 7 birds in my basement the first time I fired it up. Using it almost every weekend, I don't think its lost signal once since early last Spring, and that includes under thick, wet cover, snow, heavy conifers and along cliffs and big boulders.

Its a real wonder.

Peakbagr

 

[Pammy]

Thanks for the responses. Sounds like I have the right model! That's encouraging to hear Peakbagger....that you get a signal under all condtions in the woods. Did you always have 4 or more satelites in the woods...or can you get buy if it's only 2 or 3 ?

The US Topo East National Parks would have more detail since it's 1:24,000 correct? I'm planning on doing the 100 mile wilderness this summer. Does anyone know if the US TOPO East covers the whole 100 mile wilderness trail....or only once you get close to Katahdin?

A lot of people seem to bash the Mapsource Topo maps saying they are missing a lot of trails etc. What percentage of trails in the Whites are present?

Thanks!
Pam

 

[CaptCaper]

Thanks for the responses. Sounds like I have the right model! That's encouraging to hear Peakbagger....that you get a signal under all conditions in the woods. Did you always have 4 or more satellites in the woods...or can you get buy if it's only 2 or 3 ?

The US Topo East National Parks would have more detail since it's 1:24,000 correct? I'm planning on doing the 100 mile wilderness this summer. Does anyone know if the US TOP East covers the whole 100 mile wilderness trail....or only once you get close to Katahdin?

A lot of people seem to bash the Mapsource Topo maps saying they are missing a lot of trails etc. What percentage of trails in the Whites are present?

Thanks!
Pam

Pam

I usually check the AMC maps against Mapsource for trail accuracy first. Their maps are the most up to date and accurate. I wish they had a program for are PC's for GPS's so we can make accurate routes etc. with the updated and detailed trail information.
The 24K Topo is the better choice for the Whites but doesn't cover the whole country.
You might find having multi able programs is the way to go eventually like some of us do. Each program has it's advantages and disadvantages over the others.

The 60CSX is a great unit. The only drawback that might be with that unit is that the SIRFIII chip it uses has a built in feature that keeps it from wandering when sitting still. The feature can be turned on and off. Garmin ships is defaulted off. What that means is because it is very sensitive and uses signals that have been bounced,or weak,etc. to keep tracking the position accuracy becomes off. But they have been working on this. Make sure you have the latest updates to the chip and software for the X in there.
So I would watch for accuracy when using this unit. Make sure if in doubt its got good signals in the gps info screen.

I have the 60CS and with my micro antenna on top of my pack I've never lost a signal in the Whites doing any of the 48K's. When stopped for lunch it stays tracking right on top of me. No wandering.

I would practice alot with it and get to know it in the real world use you'll find that very helpful. The mapping programs take second place to me over the other features it will do. Like loading a route or a old track back into it to follow when the trail has vanished because of heavy snow...

Capt.