Got my GPSmap 60CSX yesterday

[Pammy]

Thanks Capt. Would you recommend that the feature that keeps it from wandering when sitting still....be kept on, or off ? What is that feature called?

Also...for keeping the chip up to date....do you use the WebUpdater for this
or is that updating the software only? I know I have software version 3.0 right now. That's the latest correct? Are there firmware updates as well as software updates? I see "GPS Chipset Type G Ver. 2.90 as of Nov 27, 2006" on Garmin's site for the CSx.

Which external antenna did you buy? Does it make that much of a difference in the woods?

Thanks!
Pam

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks for the responses. Sounds like I have the right model! That's encouraging to hear Peakbagger....that you get a signal under all condtions in the woods. Did you always have 4 or more satelites in the woods...or can you get buy if it's only 2 or 3 ?

The 60CSx just does better in poor signal conditions than the older technology units. There is no guarantee that it will always get 4 or more satellites. (For instance, no GPS will work deep in a cave.) It attempts to get by on 3 sats by assuming that your altitude stays constant (a form of semi-dead reckoning), which is less accurate than 4 or more sats.

The US Topo East National Parks would have more detail since it's 1:24,000 correct? I'm planning on doing the 100 mile wilderness this summer. Does anyone know if the US TOPO East covers the whole 100 mile wilderness trail....or only once you get close to Katahdin?

The entire AT is covered. (BTW, this info is in the product description on the Garmin website.)

A lot of people seem to bash the Mapsource Topo maps saying they are missing a lot of trails etc. What percentage of trails in the Whites are present?

The Mapsource Topos are based upon the USGS topos. The USGS topos are not updated as often as the AMC maps. This is good and bad--they don't show the latest trails, but they also show some old abandoned trails.

Doug

 

[CaptCaper]

Thanks Capt. Would you recommend that the feature that keeps it from wandering when sitting still....be kept on, or off ? What is that feature called?

1. We can't turn that on and off ourselves I believe. I can't remember the name. If you surf the web for SIRFIII your'll learn more. Don't worry about it it's not a big deal...Just make sure if your looking for accuracy at any point that your reciveing good signal strength..

Also...for keeping the chip up to date....do you use the WebUpdater for this
or is that updating the software only? I know I have software version 3.0 right now. That's the latest correct? Are there firmware updates as well as software updates? I see "GPS Chipset Type G Ver. 2.90 as of Nov 27, 2006" on Garmin's site for the CSx.

2. Ver. 3 and 2.9 is the current ones. You should make sure you have the 2.9 Chipset done as well. Also get the Mapsource current as well. 6.11.6 I belive.

Which external antenna did you buy? Does it make that much of a difference in the woods?

3.. You shouldn't need an externnal antenna with that unit but if it was me I would still the same as I store it in there nylon pouch on my front chest strap and fish the small wire size cable from the top of the pack down the shoulder strap to the gps. I find leaving it running in there keeps it warm in 0 deg. temps,keeps my hands free, and I usally never fall on my face so less chance of mashing it. With the antenna on top it keeps getting a steady signal as you climb. The antenna is http://cgi.ebay.com/Amplified-GPS-Antenna-for-Garmin-GPSMAP-60Cx-60CSx_W0QQitemZ180067569339QQihZ008QQcategoryZ58044QQcmdZViewItem it's amplified so it does a better job. They have one with a 3ft. cable. Works fine on packs. Ask them for it. I have about 6 of them for my truck,packs,etc. and never had a problem. They have magnets on the bottom that you can remove so it won't interfere with compass.
I've had one on front of my truck in blizzards,etc. never take it off for years it's been A1....If you use and mount an externnal you'll always have excellant signals through out the Whites. I can back that with my facts I have on the Laptop..from the logs I've saved.

On the ocean the GPS"S have saved my butt plenty in thick fog,etc. and for finding treasure... With hiking I've used it in simialar ways as well.

When talking GPS we always have to mention because of reasons you'll know soon is to... never rely on them totally, always have paper maps,hand compass's etc. ...

I'm waiting for the next generation to come out this spring.... Can't wait...

Jim

 

[DougPaul]

I usually check the AMC maps against Mapsource for trail accuracy first. Their maps are the most up to date and accurate. I wish they had a program for are PC's for GPS's so we can make accurate routes etc. with the updated and detailed trail information.
The 24K Topo is the better choice for the Whites but doesn't cover the whole country.
You might find having multi able programs is the way to go eventually like some of us do. Each program has it's advantages and disadvantages over the others.

I have National Geographic TOPO! Northeast, Mapsource US Topo, Mapsource US Topo 24K East, and the paper AMC White Mtn maps. Each has pros and cons. I chose whichever (or whichever combination) that does the best for the need at hand.

The 60CSX is a great unit. The only drawback that might be with that unit is that the SIRFIII chip it uses has a built in feature that keeps it from wandering when sitting still. The feature can be turned on and off. Garmin ships is defaulted off. What that means is because it is very sensitive and uses signals that have been bounced,or weak,etc. to keep tracking the position accuracy becomes off. But they have been working on this. Make sure you have the latest updates to the chip and software for the X in there.

I am not aware of this feature--do you have a reference or can you post a menu sequence that shows it? I have recorded tracks from 12hrs of a stationary 60CSx which show lots of local wandering. (Reported in http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15025.)

So I would watch for accuracy when using this unit. Make sure if in doubt its got good signals in the gps info screen.

No GPS is perfectly accurate. In the 2 bakeoff tests (http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=14406 and http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15025) the 60CSx was found to be the most repeatable under degraded signal conditions of any of the tested GPSes. (The 60CS did better in the stationary GPS with good signal conditions test.)

I would practice alot with it and get to know it in the real world use you'll find that very helpful.

GPSes are wonderful but complicated devices. Practice with it when you don't need it (eg on a walk, hikes on a trail, in the car) so that if you really need it, you will know how to use it.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Also...for keeping the chip up to date....do you use the WebUpdater for this or is that updating the software only? I know I have software version 3.0 right now. That's the latest correct? Are there firmware updates as well as software updates? I see "GPS Chipset Type G Ver. 2.90 as of Nov 27, 2006" on Garmin's site for the CSx.

Those are the latest. Some people have reported problems with WebUpdater and just manually download and install the updates. (I have always done it manually and will continue to do so. I've never had any problem with it.)

There is firmware for the SIRF Star III GPS chipset ("GPS Chipset Type G Ver ...") and firmware for the GPS computer ("GPSMAP 60CSx Ver ..."). Both must be updated separately.

Which external antenna did you buy? Does it make that much of a difference in the woods?

I use an external antenna from PC-mobile http://www.pc-mobile.net/gpsant.htm. Gilsson http://www.gilsson.com also carries antennas which seem to have a good reputation. (I think http://www.thegpsstore.com sells the Gilsson antenna at a better price.) The Garmin antennas are fine too, but expensive.

My experience is that you can get a good track in most woods without the external antenna if you carry the GPS properly oriented and in a good place (vertical and high on a pack shoulder strap is generally good enough, high in a pack and vertical should be ok too). (Generally good enough for me unless I'm intentionally mapping a trail.) The external antenna wires are thin and easy to tangle, kink or break, so I don't use them unless there is a good reason. See the bakeoff results for repeatability vs antenna and carrying position comparisons.

So, I suggest that you try the GPS without the external antenna. If it is good enough, don't worry about it.

Doug

 

[Pammy]

Thanks again for everyone's valuable input.

Capt....My mapsource was 6.10 and I just updated it to 6.11.6 . Since I just downloaded mapsource a few days ago....I assumed the download was the most recent version....but I guess I guessed wrong!

I'll try the GPS without the external antenna first....and if I find I'm losing signal in spots....I'll get the antenna. Thanks for the link!

Bye
Pam

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks Capt. Would you recommend that the feature that keeps it from wandering when sitting still....be kept on, or off ? What is that feature called?

1. We can't turn that on and off ourselves I believe. I can't remember the name. If you surf the web for SIRFIII your'll learn more. Don't worry about it it's not a big deal...Just make sure if your looking for accuracy at any point that your reciveing good signal strength..

As I noted earlier, I am not aware of such a feature and it is not listed in the "product insert" info available on the SIRF website. (Detailed developer's manuals for the chipsets don't seem to be available on the website.)

I did a quick search and found no evidence of such a feature. The closest was an external program which suppresses wandering by requiring the movement exceed some threshold before being reported--a hack that reduces one's actual accuracy.

The 60CSx does feature optional position averaging when recording a waypoint, but that is different from an anti-wandering feature.

Doug

 

[CaptCaper]

Doug ..You'll have to search the web for the info on this chipset. It's there. They use it in all types of electronics. Sorry I do not have the time to search and read again about this. I can't remember were I read it. But it's out there. I'll bet a Muddy Moose Burger on it.
. Check the SIRF's website first. It was brought to me by the guys at the Geocache fourums...I surfed out to read more as I wanted to try a X. I did buy one and sold it. I'm going to wait for a big jump to jump. My CS never breaks track anywere and thats good enough for me period for now..

Pam good luck just remember that you can get excellant signals anywhere in the Moutains in all kinds of weather all the time if thats what you want. And I've found it with recieveing these strong signals when following the active logs either current or previous ones (I'm talking the ACTIVE LOGS not SAVED TRACKs) you'll be so close if not on the track you'll never leave home again without one again.

Lot's of stuff here about being able to do this if you search. Lot's of little things to know like leaving it running for an hour or so first before the hike to get the altimeter in your S unit and gps signals to get updated to current. And on and on...

 

[Pammy]

Thanks Capt. As far as leaving it on an hour before you start a hike.... do you have turn it on while driving up to the whites....or are you out of the car with in on for an hour before a hike?

 

[DougPaul]

Doug ..You'll have to search the web for the info on this chipset. It's there. They use it in all types of electronics. Sorry I do not have the time to search and read again about this. I can't remember were I read it. But it's out there. I'll bet a Muddy Moose Burger on it.
. Check the SIRF's website first. It was brought to me by the guys at the Geocache fourums...I surfed out to read more as I wanted to try a X. I did buy one and sold it. I'm going to wait for a big jump to jump. My CS never breaks track anywere and thats good enough for me period for now..

Guess we posted simultaneously...

As noted I have search the SIRF website and used a search engine to see if I could find anything to support the existence of the feature. Got nothing. I also follow some sources that are likely to note such a feature. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation floating around about GPSes and I would like to find out if this is real or legend.

Anyhoo, I certainly agree that the 60CSx is an impressive performer...

Pam good luck just remember that you can get excellant signals anywhere in the Moutains in all kinds of weather all the time if thats what you want. And I've found it with recieveing these strong signals when following the active logs either current or previous ones (I'm talking the ACTIVE LOGS not SAVED TRACKs) you'll be so close if not on the track you'll never leave home again without one again.

Agreed--the 60CSx, if used properly, should give you a reasonably accurate position and decent tracks for the vast majority of hiking situations found in the NE.

BTW, saved tracks throw a lot of information away (time, altitude, some of the track points) to save space, so if you are saving tracks to your computer, you may prefer to save the active track.

The 60CSx also allows you to save (the active) tracks to the microSD card so you can save as much as you have space for without losing info. These tracks cannot be viewed on the GPS, so they are only useful if you download them to your computer.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks Capt. As far as leaving it on an hour before you start a hike.... do you have turn it on while driving up to the whites....or are you out of the car with in on for an hour before a hike?

This is primarily an issue if you use the autocalibration for the altimeter. Otherwise a few minutes is generally sufficient.

I just turn mine on for the drive up, change to fresh batteries at the trailhead, and go.

BTW, if you use the internal magnetic compass, you will have to recalibrate it every time you change the batteries to compensate for the magnetic field produced by the batteries. (I don't use it.)

Doug

 

[Peakbagr]

Pam,

I usually turn the GPS on just as I'm getting to the trailhead, and leave it either on the seat or windshield while I'm getting ready. Its usually only a min or two until its good to go.

I too don't use the Webupdater. A Garmin tech told me that they are having lots of problems with updates downloaded thru Webupdater, but that was a few months ago.
The tech also said that the GPS units 'learn'. She explained that when the unit is on in certain places, and times, the unit knows where to look for the strongest signal and the longer you have in and the more places its used, the quicker it will acquire and reacquire birds. I have no way to verify that, just what I was told.

As to trails, I always plan my routes on Nat'l Geo and always compare those maps to the full USGS maps. In many cases, trails are missing on either the NG or Garmin maps. Many Catskills trails, for example do not show when you look at your GPS screen and the same in places in the ADKs.
Doesn't matter though. If you have a commercial map with you, you can always see where you on on a given trail, whether it shows on the unit or not.

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool map/compass hiker and learning how to use a GPS this last year has been an absolute ball.

 

[Rick]

Just got my new Garmin GPSMAP 76CSx (I had this on another thread I started today, but decided to add it to this thread and delete the new one.)--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was at the new LL Bean store which just opened a few miles from our house.
I saw the Garmin GPSMAP76CS priced at $179 and the GPSMAP 76 on sale for $449 down from $549. Due to the pricing mix-up (and that Bean honors the price), I offered to split the difference ($314) for the 76CSx and the manager agreed. My old Vista is now on Ebay. LL Bean is pretty cool.
Though I like th 60CSX, I do a lot of kayaking and for the savings, this was an overall better deal.

So yesterday I got a 2GB Micro disk. I thought I could upload all the Mapsource Topo map sections to my unit, but even though Garmin supports 2GB, you can only upload 2,025 map sections at this time - I spoke to the Garmin Customer Service Rep (20 minute wait) and he said that plans are under way to increase the number of map-set uploads (It took about an hour to upload 2,025 map-sets).
I now need to get NG Topo 4 Upgrade so I can use my USB port with Nat geographic.

I am really impressed at the battery life on the GPSMAP as well as the fast satellite signals and the incredible antenna sensitivity. A real change from my old Vista, which, while good, is like going from 4 cylinder Chevette to a corvette.

Question for the gurus... Will the Mini USB port that Garmin now uses, work with my Blackberry Mini USB charger - Does anyone know if they are the same voltage (or watts, ohms or anything else that they use to measure electricity). I don't want to destroy anything too prematurely

Thanks!!!!

 

[DougPaul]

I usually turn the GPS on just as I'm getting to the trailhead, and leave it either on the seat or windshield while I'm getting ready. Its usually only a min or two until its good to go.

This is fine except the altitudes will be inaccurate for a while if you are using the barometric altimeter in auto calibration mode. The accuracy will improve with time. (Of course, if you don't calibrate the altimeter by some means, it will always be inaccurate...)

BTW, I think the tracklog uses the GPS altitude, so calibration of the barometric altimeter should not affect the recorded track.

The tech also said that the GPS units 'learn'. She explained that when the unit is on in certain places, and times, the unit knows where to look for the strongest signal and the longer you have in and the more places its used, the quicker it will acquire and reacquire birds. I have no way to verify that, just what I was told.

The "learning" that the GPSes do is to download and save the almanac (coarse orbital information for all of the satellites). This allows faster acquisition of the satellites if the GPS is turned on close to where it was last turned off. However, the 60CSx and 76CSx (and I believe all the Garmin SIRF Star III GPS chipset units) do not use the almanac. They can search so quickly that it would save little time. It then takes ~30 sec to download the ephemeris (detailed orbits) before the bars go black and the satellites can be used. (An ephemeris is valid for ~2hr (I think), so if you turn it back on while it is still valid, the start-up is even faster.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Just got my new Garmin GPSMAP 76CSx (I had this on another thread I started today, but decided to add it to this thread and delete the new one.)

Tried to answer this on the original thread and got an error. Fortunately I saved my answer...

Question for the gurus... Will the Mini USB port that Garmin now uses, work with my Blackberry Mini USB charger - Does anyone know if they are the same voltage (or watts, ohms or anything else that they use to measure electricity). I don't want to destroy anything too prematurely

There are standards for the voltages put out on USB ports. (I think it is 5V at 100ma, but check it first. A search should find the specs.) If the charger follows them, you should be ok. Measure the voltage on the pins with voltmeter to see if it matches the spec.

There is also a 12V external power cord available.

I generally use the GPS in ways that would require a very long cord, so I just run it on batteries.

NiMH rechargables are a very practical and common solution. (There are a number of threads on this topic--search and ye shall find.)

Doug

 

[Peakbagr]

I've noticed that if I turn the GPS off at the conclusion of a hike and then turn it back on a few minutes later, it locks into the satellites really quickly the 2nd time.

I'm having a lot of fun with the new GPS, and I haven't even scratched the surface of its capabilities yet.

Thanks for setting us straight.
PB

 

[DougPaul]

I've noticed that if I turn the GPS off at the conclusion of a hike and then turn it back on a few minutes later, it locks into the satellites really quickly the 2nd time.

Yep. This is frequently called a "hot start".

(Almanac only is frequently called a "warm start" (not applicable to the 60CSx and 76CSx), and having neither is called a "cold start". The 60CSx and 76CSx perform a very fast cold start or a hot start.)

I'm having a lot of fun with the new GPS, and I haven't even scratched the surface of its capabilities yet.

I played with my first one and reread the manual for about a week before I felt reasonably comfortable with it. And I still play with it to remain current on the details. But I suspect that very few (if any) of us use all the features.

Doug

 

[CaptCaper]

Doug Paul

According to Dale DePrist or Joe or one of there buddies I believe at gpsinformation.net in a past test he performed on the S units it took over an hour to reach the peak of accuracy with these units in auto calibration mode. I'm talking about the altitude,barometer readings with these not the compass.
The test If I remember correctly was performed as usual with readings through out a long time period. And because of the findings of this test I always leave it on from the trailhead even if I don't necessarily want a complete track.
Don't ask me to go start digging man at that site. You know what that can be like. . I'm learing about Snow Machines now. I guess I'm a multi use guy.
On the SIRF. It is a fact and I belive going to GPSPASSION.com might get you surfting to the info on this SIRF Chip.They can be Garmin specific. That's how I know it is defaulted off with a Garmin. Unless the newest Garmin fix turned it on. I don't care as I sold it. That's why I sold the X because I didn't want any of that wandering or what happens when you turn on the switch to stop wandering.
I'm going to wait for a big jump to a better map screen and reciever... since I never lose the signal anywhere hiking threw the Whites with my setup and 60CS.
Must be a lousey weekend everones on the pc..
Capt.

 

[CaptCaper]

Pammy you confused yet? Still with us???



It'll come in time if your confused...

I generally turn it on the wayto the hike( but living here now it only takes me a few minutes to get to trail heads) or the night before If I haven't used it recently. Then at the trailhead while dressing,etc. and leave it on all day..til I get back. After an hour up the mountain the unit is recieveing signals and giving data "at it's best" Simple as that...

On the antenna I forgot to mention I have a 90deg. mcx with a lobster band that holds it in good and that allows a neat tuck into the Nylon pouch.

 

[DougPaul]

According to Dale DePrist or Joe or one of there buddies I believe at gpsinformation.net in a past test he performed on the S units it took over an hour to reach the peak of accuracy with these units in auto calibration mode. I'm talking about the altitude,barometer readings with these not the compass.
The test If I remember correctly was performed as usual with readings through out a long time period. And because of the findings of this test I always leave it on from the trailhead even if I don't necessarily want a complete track.
Don't ask me to go start digging man at that site. You know what that can be like. . I'm learing about Snow Machines now. I guess I'm a multi use guy.

I think we are in agreement on the Garmin barometric altimeter auto-calibration--takes an hour or so to do a good job. And from the same/similar sources.

Yeah--I suffer from interest in too many things too... Only so many hours in a day.

On the SIRF. It is a fact and I belive going to GPSPASSION.com might get you surfting to the info on this SIRF Chip.They can be Garmin specific. That's how I know it is defaulted off with a Garmin. Unless the newest Garmin fix turned it on. I don't care as I sold it. That's why I sold the X because I didn't want any of that wandering or what happens when you turn on the switch to stop wandering.

OK, I just haven't been able to find it anywhere else and would like to understand the details of what, if anything, is going on. Many of the internal details are too technical for most users and it is also possible that something is being misinterpreted. (I understand much or maybe even most of what is going on inside at least at a qualitative level.)

In the update log for the SIRF Chipset firmware, there is the section:

Changes made from version 2.20 to 2.30:
* Improved velocity filtering.

Such a change might affect the amount of indicated position wandering. But it doesn't look like something one can turn on and off. (I have found no such setting on my 60CSx.)

My bakeoff2 experiments showed the 60CS to wander a bit less than the 60CSx when stationary in good signal conditions. But in poor signal conditions (again stationary GPSes), the 60CSx wandered less than the 60CS. And in all experiments using an out and back on the same path (walking, hiking, or biking) the in and out tracks were closer with the 60CSx than with the 60CS. I could probably take 2 copies of the same GPS and tweak their smoothing algorithms and get a similar result. For my uses, I prefer the 60CSx. (I'm also not bothered by a small amount of indicated position wandering when the GPS is stationary--in fact I'd start wondering if something were wrong if it didn't happen. I also suspect that this is linked to one's choice of display orientation--it would be a nuisance if one used track up, I use north up.)

If you look at the tracks recorded for the first bakeoff, the 60CSx mounted on a pack shoulder strap gave as good a track as the 60CS with a head-mounted external antenna and much better than the shoulder-mounted 60CS. (The tracks are available from the writeup--take a look.) Unfortunately we had to elminate the 60CSx with head-mounted external antenna due to some problem--however, the second bakeoff suggests that it would have been better then the 60CS.

I'm going to wait for a big jump to a better map screen and reciever... since I never lose the signal anywhere hiking threw the Whites with my setup and 60CS.

I have heard rumors that the next models will have better displays. We shall see when they are announced.

Must be a lousey weekend everones on the pc..

I suspect that many are waiting for the better weather promised for Sunday.

Doug