GPS questions

[shamples]

So I have been going back and forth for years now on purchasing a GPS for hiking trails in NH.

But usually after researching and reading user reviews, there is always negative feedback and most are convoluted and not easy to use if you don't know what you are doing as a first timer with these units.

I really want it more just for fun. Nothing too serious.

Almost bought that cheapie Etrex 10 a few times but don't even want to end up possibly wasting $120.

I have a android smartphone and downloaded the app mapmyhike and used it today when I hiked South Pack and North Pack Monadnock from Miller State Park. The trip was 8 miles and the app was working great as a cool little track-along, but 4 hours into the trip and 5.5 miles into it, my phone battery was completely drained. So even though there are MANY cool apps for phones, I just don't see phones being the answer for half day or longer time hikes. You basically cannot use a phone for that which is disappointing since most those apps are free and very easy to use.

So got me back to thinking about a dedicated GPS unit. So again, anyone have any good ideas? I saw the ressurected thread about an iPad with apps and that might not be a bad idea. iPad Mini is $330 and I can use it for a ton of other functions too, but for $330 I can prolly get a decent GPS too.

So conflicted and hate wasting money. But don't mind spending well spent money on something good and cool that would be fun to use on the trails. HELP, LOL

 

[Jeff List]

No doubt battery life is still a major limiter with smartphones used as GPS.
However, I can get about 10 hours of GPS track-recording time on my Android smartphone (Samsung Exhilarate) using the app Backcountry Navigator, if I don't turn the screen on too often. I also make sure the phone is in airplane mode, because a phone searching for signal where there isn't any will rapidly drain a battery. Many (but not all) Android phones have user-replaceable batteries (including mine), so if I carry a spare (only 1.4oz) I don't have to worry about draining the first one. Operation in rainy weather is also no problem, as it works fine through a phone-sized Loksak.
I also have a Garmin Etrex Vista Hcx, but the phone-based GPS has so many advantages that I probably won't use it much anymore, except maybe in winter or when I want a very long track recorded.

 

[MichaelJ]

Here are a couple of options that may work for you.

An iGo battery charger. By which I mean it's a battery you charge up at home, then on the hike you use it as supplemental power for your phone. It's pretty lightweight, lighter than a GPS unit for sure. I've not used it hiking, but have taken a 2+ hour bike ride and the phone was still completely charged, the iGo still going strong, afterward. Hiking, you'd definitely want to use Airplane mode as suggested or some method of turning off the cell radio while leaving the GPS functionality turned on. 6 hours of searching for a cell signal would wipe out any battery & supplemental battery.

Are you looking to have interactions with your GPS or just record a track log for future use? If the latter, try out an Amod AGL3080 tracker. It's small, lightweight, and works well. All it does is record a track, and waypoints whenever you hit the button. Connect it by USB to your computer after the hike and it appears as a disk drive full of NMEA-format log files, which are easily converted with the free GPSBabel software, and are even natively understood by some products.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

If/when I replace my Garmin 60CSx, I'll be looking closely at a Garmin eTrex 30.

I have a couple of apps for my 'Droild - Google Maps and Alpine something or other. Google Maps is terrific, but doesn't have the functionality of my Garmin Nuvi 1490LMT So, I use both when in my vehicles, and will use or or the other depending upon the need. It's also fun to run them in tandem to compare their similiarities/differences.

Same thing with the trail GPS - sometimes I need the real deal, and then I pack the Garmin 60CSx.

 

[DougPaul]

I wouldn't consider the eTrex 10--so many features have been stripped (eg basemap only--cannot add maps, no removable memory card, B&W display) that it is far less useful than the higher models.

A quick glance at the features suggests that the eTrex 20, eTrex 30, and the GPSMAP 62s would be good choices.

Garmin info: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-the-trail/handhelds/cOnTheTrail-cHandheld-p1.html (The manuals are also available online.)

I personally own a 60CSx (predecessor to the 62s) and, if I had to replace it now, would replace it with one of the above.

Note: I have compared tracks recorded by the 60CSx and an iPhone--the 60CSx tracks were significantly better. If I had to depend on my GPS in an emergency, I would definitely prefer the more accurate unit.

Doug

 

[shamples]

I was wondering about Airplane mode and if that app would work in that mode.

If that is the case, then that may solve my problems somewhat. I figured I would try it the first time as is. Next time, I will have to try airplane mode.

I will still flirt around with the idea of a dedicated GPS too of course.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Peakbagr]

I own two 60CSxs, one as a backup. DougPaul's the man on this technology.

 

[NeoAkela]

I also have a 60csx and have for years - still going strong and has not lost a signal yet, even in Mahoosuc Notch and other remote places. A hiking friend has a smartphone app that he uses, but quite often his cell service cuts out, leaving him with absolutely nothing. So, I'm keeping the Garmin and not moving up to phones or pads just yet.

On a similar note, another friend has the 62s and is able to download sat image overlays and blend them with his Topo maps. Comes in handy for finding that open ledge out there in the woods, so my next upgrade will be one of the newer Garmin map units, as the old 60csx does not have that ability.

 

[John H Swanson]

While I never owned a gps, I recently got a ipone 5 and decided to do a comparison.
I lead a club hike in harriman and asked my regulars to bring their gps/gps phone apps.
We had a Garmin (probably the csx), my iphone 5 running MotionX, an iphone 4 running MotionX, and a droid phone running a Trimble app.

In Harriman, all the trails are wheeled multiple times to confirm length accuracy +/- 0.03mi Meaning the book displays with 0.05mi Okay, there may be some degradation in accuracy due to blowdowns etc, but it should be good.

On one hike, the book said 13.2 mi;
The iphone 5 with motionX said 12.36;
The iphone 4 with motionX said 12.74mi;
The Garmin said 13.11mi; Then the Garmin owner download the track and ran it though some softwares to confirm elevation change and add smoothing (?) and got 13.17-13.19mi
The droid with Trimble app said 13.23mi.

On a second hike, the results were similar, but we did not have the Garmin owner along. In this case, the iphone 5 went from full charge to 10% after 6 hours and 14 miles, but I was running MotionX and another altimeter app.

 

[JoeCedar]

In the Garmin setup, there are various ways to collect track points (at least this is true for my GPSMAP 76Cx): distance (min. 0.01 mile or 0.01 km), time (min. 1 sec), and auto (Garmin decides). I usually use the distance mode at 0.01 mile so that it records a point every 50 feet or so. This obviously can miss minor twists/turns in a trail, but the results match the distances in the ADK and AMC hiking guides. Time can give you more points, but also can give you more points than you want, i.e., when you are standing still or eating lunch. This mode usually requires "cleaning" to remove extraneous points which show you moving when you weren't. I have no idea what Garmin's auto does. So, the accuracy of the Garmin results depends on how you set it up for recording.

With the phone apps, does the documentation indicate the interval for taking points? Probably not.

 

[madmattd]

Happy Etrex 20 owner of 1.5 years here. Holds a great signal, and uses up to 24 satellites at a time so generally pretty accurate positioning. It can take topo maps (which I got free off GPSFileDepot, along with a trails overlay that is decent if partially incomplete), which I've found very helpful over the one I used 10 years ago that merely recorded tracks with a rough elevation estimate. Since it has a MicroSD slot, I just put a large card in there with various topos covering basically the whole US and never have to remember to load new maps if I'm going somewhere outside the NE. It doesn't have the magnetic compass or barometric altimeter of the Etrex 30, but I don't miss those features personally. It can also load the satellite imagery mentioned above but I haven't used that feature yet.

Battery life with the screen brightness turned way down (still quite readable for me) is 20-24 hrs, and I have a set of eneloop rechargeable AAs I use for it.

The hike distances mine reports are usually a tad on the short side, but I've left it in "auto" collection mode versus the other options JoeCedar mentions (and it does have some other options, I've just never bothered). I really only use mine for fun fwiw, to have a track and waypoints I can overlay onto Google Earth afterwards, and to look at the elevation profiles.

 

[DougPaul]

Happy Etrex 20 owner of 1.5 years here.
<snip>
It doesn't have the magnetic compass or barometric altimeter of the Etrex 30, but I don't miss those features personally.

I personally don't use the magnetic compass on my 60CSx, but I do use the barometric altimeter. A GPS calibrated barometric altimeter (60CSx, 62s, eTrex 30) is more accurate than a pure GPS altimeter (eTrex 20). A barometric altimeter can also be used to help predict the weather.

Garmin doesn't appear to publish the altitude accuracy of the eTrex line, but the 60CSx has a rated accuracy of 10 feet, and the estimated vertical accuracy of the 60Cx (same GPS without the barometric sensor) would be ~66ft. (The vertical accuracy of a GPS is about twice its horizontal accuracy.)

Battery life with the screen brightness turned way down (still quite readable for me) is 20-24 hrs, and I have a set of eneloop rechargeable AAs I use for it.

I normally leave the screen light off and only turn it on for short periods when needed--thus the screen has a negligible effect on the battery life. (There is also an auto shutoff mode where the light will turn off after a short period.)

The manual for the eTrex 10, 20, and 30 can be found at http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/eTrex_10-20-30_OM_EN.pdf and the manual for the 62s can be found at http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/GPSMAP62_OM_EN.pdf

The hike distances mine reports are usually a tad on the short side, but I've left it in "auto" collection mode versus the other options JoeCedar mentions (and it does have some other options, I've just never bothered). I really only use mine for fun fwiw, to have a track and waypoints I can overlay onto Google Earth afterwards, and to look at the elevation profiles.

Trail distances are not unique--they are fractals (the length depends on the size of the ruler that you use to measure them--shorter rulers will yield longer distances). Since there is no single correct distance, it is not possible to determine the accuracy of any particular measurement (whether by GPS, measuring wheel, or survey). The typical consumer GPS makes one position measurement per second--the various track recording modes simply save different subsets of these measurements and each mode has different biases. And, of course, the GPS position measurements have errors which will also affect the result.

Doug

 

[Remix]

I got a flyer in the mail about an REI sale with big discounts on the touch screen Garmin Oregon. I think its just over $200. It is very capable, but, like my Colorado, the high resolution screen works best in direct sunlight or at night. In a water proof case, its hard to read.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I got a flyer in the mail about an REI sale with big discounts on the touch screen Garmin Oregon. I think its just over $200.

The price makes it tempting. Does anyone know whether you can download via USB cable maps sets from products like TOPO US 100K, Topo US 24K West, Topo Canada v4, etc? The online info says you can insert a microSD card with optional mapsets, but it's only useful to me if I can download subsets of maps I own and are installed on my PC (running XP and Chrome, thank you very much!).

 

[Remix]

The price makes it tempting. Does anyone know whether you can download via USB cable maps sets from products like TOPO US 100K, Topo US 24K West, Topo Canada v4, etc? The online info says you can insert a microSD card with optional mapsets, but it's only useful to me if I can download subsets of maps I own and are installed on my PC (running XP and Chrome, thank you very much!).

According to the flyer its the Oregon 450t for $199. The t means 100k topos are built-in. I am very sure you can download maps into it for kayaking or 24K series. My colorodo came with ocean charts and I put 24k, 100k topos in, national parks in, and east coast fishing spots, and I even tried city streets. Whenever the map is showing you can tell it which maps it should display.

touch screen and 3-axis compass and barometer too. If its like the colorado, it will record a garmin heart rate monitor and pedal cadence into the gps logs.


I would check the reviews on Amazon--dont quote me..... I think there is a Yahoo group as well.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

According to the flyer its the Oregon 450t for $199. The t means 100k topos are built-in. I am very sure you can download maps into it for kayaking or 24K series. My colorodo came with ocean charts and I put 24k, 100k topos in, national parks in, and east coast fishing spots, and I even tried city streets. Whenever the map is showing you can tell it which maps it should display.

touch screen and 3-axis compass and barometer too. If its like the colorado, it will record a garmin heart rate monitor and pedal cadence into the gps logs.


I would check the reviews on Amazon--dont quote me..... I think there is a Yahoo group as well.

Thanks for the info, Remix. And - FWIW - Cabelas has this model on sale for the same price, including free shipping, thru the end of May.

On the above page, Cabela's has a couple of rather useful links, including this one -

 

[DougPaul]

According to the flyer its the Oregon 450t
<snip>
touch screen and 3-axis compass and barometer too. If its like the colorado, it will record a garmin heart rate monitor and pedal cadence into the gps logs.

I personally would avoid touch screens for outdoor use:
* Difficulty using touch screen when wearing gloves or mittens (Does it work at all?)
* Finger dirt and grime on the screen. (Wear and scratches?)
* DEET (from your fingers) may damage the screen.

Otherwise, the specs look ok.

Garmin web page:
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-the-water/handhelds-wrist-worn/oregon-450t/prod63350.html

Comparison with the 62st:
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/cat....ep?compareProduct=63350&compareProduct=63802

And yes, it can take a removable memory card and has a USB interface so you should be able to download maps from your computer.

Take yer choice...

Doug

 

[Remix]

I personally would avoid touch screens for outdoor use:
* Difficulty using touch screen when wearing gloves or mittens (Does it work at all?)
* Finger dirt and grime on the screen. (Wear and scratches?)
* DEET (from your fingers) may damage the screen.

Otherwise, the specs look ok.

Garmin web page:
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/on-the-water/handhelds-wrist-worn/oregon-450t/prod63350.html

Comparison with the 62st:
https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/cat....ep?compareProduct=63350&compareProduct=63802

And yes, it can take a removable memory card and has a USB interface so you should be able to download maps from your computer.

Take yer choice...

Doug

I'm not endorsing the Oregon, but with touch screens becoming omnipresent, glove manufacturers have come up with glove tips with silver threads. They are available in casual, formal, and I even saw a pair of winter lining gloves with the feature.

See http://www.burton.com/mens-touchscreen-liner-glove/275609,default,pd.html

 

[Rob S]

My (somewhat limited) experience - - -

Etrex Legend (Owned for 3 or 4 years) = loses signal frequently. Large gaps in tracklog. Difficulty in acquiring satellites under heavy canopy. Nearly impossible to acquire satellites under wet, heavy canopy (i.e. during or after rain).

60CSx (owned since 2009) = has never lost satellite signal, not once. No gaps in tracklog. No problems acquiring satellites under heavy canopy. No problems acquiring satellites under wet, heavy canopy. Has performed flawlessly and, like Peakbagr, am planning to buy another as a back-up. (can still be found on ebay)

I own two 60CSxs, one as a backup. DougPaul's the man on this technology.

Listen to pretty much anything either of these guys post - - - they are both always spot on.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Remix - I ordered a Garmin 450t from REI, in part because I had $50 in certificates due to expire. In the interest of acccuracy - REI didn't have these in stock when the sale became effective, so mine is back-ordered. As you point out, smartphones have glass touchscreens, and having used my smartphone for 2 years, environmental issues like cold, scratching, and DEET, are not an issue. This isn't to say all touchscreen manufacture is the same, but still. Also, since I have to remove my gloves/mittens off to use my 60CXs (I have 2 - one is a backup), that's not an issue.

Mostly I ordered the Oregon because of its larger screen size, not that I'm dissatisfied in any way with the performance of the 60CSx which I've used for 10 or 15 years. On a related note - this last winter is the first one where I've used Sanyo Eneloops extensively. The 7 years I lived in the Sierra aren't a comparison as it isn't nearly as cold as New England. The last winter I'd winter hiked extensively in NE (2004/2005) I could expect to put in a fresh set after about 6 hours. This past winter they never needed to be exchanged, despite several hikes with subzero temps, including the minus teens. My practice is to put in a freshly charged set before each hike, and recharge the old with a smart charger. With 30+ winter hikes this past winter, using different sets of Eneloops, I'm satisfied the performance is consistent.

If I'm satisfied with the performance of the 450t, I'll be selling one of my 60CSx models.

Finally - I found an online service (free) which does a fine job displaying a GPS track and generating useful information. You can toggle the type of map display. It's called Everytrail, and an example of a recent hike to Killington and Pico is here. I've also posted tracks at Wikilocs, but it doesn't have a comparable mapping feature.