GPS questions

[Remix]

Remix - I ordered a Garmin 450t from REI, in part because I had $50 in certificates due to expire. In the interest of acccuracy - REI didn't have these in stock when the sale became effective, so mine is back-ordered. As you point out, smartphones have glass touchscreens, and having used my smartphone for 2 years, environmental issues like cold, scratching, and DEET, are not an issue. This isn't to say all touchscreen manufacture is the same, but still. Also, since I have to remove my gloves/mittens off to use my 60CXs (I have 2 - one is a backup), that's not an issue.

Mostly I ordered the Oregon because of its larger screen size, not that I'm dissatisfied in any way with the performance of the 60CSx which I've used for 10 or 15 years. On a related note - this last winter is the first one where I've used Sanyo Eneloops extensively. The 7 years I lived in the Sierra aren't a comparison as it isn't nearly as cold as New England. The last winter I'd winter hiked extensively in NE (2004/2005) I could expect to put in a fresh set after about 6 hours. This past winter they never needed to be exchanged, despite several hikes with subzero temps, including the minus teens. My practice is to put in a freshly charged set before each hike, and recharge the old with a smart charger. With 30+ winter hikes this past winter, using different sets of Eneloops, I'm satisfied the performance is consistent.

If I'm satisfied with the performance of the 450t, I'll be selling one of my 60CSx models.

Finally - I found an online service (free) which does a fine job displaying a GPS track and generating useful information. You can toggle the type of map display. It's called Everytrail, and an example of a recent hike to Killington and Pico is here. I've also posted tracks at Wikilocs, but it doesn't have a comparable mapping feature.

I think you will be very happy with it. There are alot of features that improve it such as a faster but more efficient processor and higher resolution display, and probably many more adjustments and settings. Let us know what you think about after you have had a chance to use it.

Enjoy the long weekend!

 

[TomK]

A new GPS user vs Garmin GPSMAP62s (the GPS is winning)

I’d been thinking about getting a GPS for a while now, and this thread prompted me to go ahead and do it. I picked up a Garmin GPSMAP 62s from REI. The primary reason for getting it is emergency navigation in case I manage to get myself lost. I consider myself reasonably proficient with a map and compass but I figured being able to quickly identify my position at any time would be a big plus.

Out of the box, I have to admit I was pretty bewildered, having zero prior experience with GPS. In my opinion, calling the documentation (quick start manual, PDF located in the unit’s memory) inadequate and useless is an affront to documentation that is inadequate and useless. I spent 25+ years as a software engineer, so I’m no technophobe. I started digging into GPS related threads here in VFTT, and did a lot of searching elsewhere on the web.

Discovered the Basecamp software, downloaded and installed it on my PC. Downloaded the NH trail tracks from ftp://ftp.mytopo.com/nhtrails. Found and downloaded a topo map for New England and part of New York. Did a bit of going to a local trail network that I know well, and play around with the unit, try stuff and go back home and hit the net to try to discover what I’m doing wrong. Did manage to find out how to get the unit to display “This belongs to <TomK>”, and my e-mail address when it boots so that when/if I lose it, if someone finds it and is inclined to return it, they have a way to contact me. Bought and installed a 4GB microSD card, and moved the topo map there.

Out of the box, when I would hit the “find” button and then select a waypoint or track to get to, I’d get a message to the effect that there were no routable roads in the area. Do tell. Eventually I managed to find the right setting to fix that, not sure I could tell exactly which one or how.

At this point I’ve managed to figure out how to get it to display a topo map, record some tracks and waypoints, follow the tracks, set a proximity alarm on a waypoint, and verify that when I got close to it, it would alert me. Tried to get it to tell me how to return to a waypoint I had set at the trailhead, and did manage to follow it back. At this point I feel about 49% confident I could use the GPS to get back to the trailhead or to backtrack my original track. Some of the displays have stuff that I can’t identify and/or are confusing. I’ll do more playing in the local area until I get more proficient. It is fun to download the tracks to my computer and play with them after the fact, but is seems the unit is more useful for that sort of thing than being of use as a navigational tool in a place where I haven’t already been to set up waypoints and/or tracks.

What else should I be reading or doing? I’d be appreciative of any pointers to stuff to read that I haven’t found yet (like a good tutorial), or stuff I should try to get myself more proficient. In the meantime, I’ll keep playing with it in a familiar area until I feel confident enough to feel it will be useful to me in unfamiliar areas.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Tom - I think you did a remarkable job in learning all those features in such a short period. And I must agree that the documentation is less than inadequate.

A few suggestions/observations - 1) I find my GPS most useful when I've pre-loaded a track showing my destination. I do this by either loading one I've created from a previous hike, or using either Wikiloc or Everytrail to download one. To download a track to my 60CSx, the track must be 500 points or less, or it will be truncated. There are different ways this can be done. To verify what was transmitted, simply upload the track and compare it. 2) To determine how far away your destination is, simply move the pointer to your destination - the straight-line distance is displayed in the upper right corner of my 60CSx. You have to make mental adjustments, of course, but it's a start. 3) I recently worked thru the menus to display the current elevation on the screen showing the map and current track. Frequently I glance at the GPS to determine my altitude, and previously it meant changing screens. 4) Consider using MapSource rather than Basecamp for manipulating tracks. It's a bit of a kludge to get a copy, but send me a PM if you're interested. Basecamp supports all the Garmin products (MapSource apparently doesn't), but if you only need software to manage your 62 and perhaps a vehicle GPS, I find MapSource a more precise tool. 5) Don't be alarmed if the stats (distance, elevation gained) displayed on your GPS are somewhat different than either Basecamp or MapSource calculates. One would assume they'd be the same, but ... as noted before, software and documentation are not Garmin's strong suit. Apparently the hardware uses different algorithms than the PC software.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Hi Tom -- I was just thinking about you last weekend as I rode my bicycle past Kimball's and the Jaffrey Airport I, too, find the software severely lacking and wonder sometimes how Garmin manages to sell these devices. When my wife got mine (a Christmas gift) she balked because of all the comments about the challenges of learning to use it. You are on the right track - I just took mine everywhere with me for the first month or so. I use the free maps and trails that you mention above with great success. At some point, I hope to try it in the ADKs, but the maps and trails for the Whites are pretty darn good.

Is it easier to use than .odl files and tkb?

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

TomK:

GPSes are sophisticated, complicated little beasts. I generally suggest that beginners read the manual (as bad as it may be) and go through all the menus several times. Also use it (whether you need it or not) on walks, hikes, etc to get used to it and to see how it performs--it may take a while for a first-time user to become comfortable with it. Most users end up learning a habitable subset of its capabilities.

It appears that you have done much of the above and are off to a good start. There are books (search at REI, for instance), but I haven't read any of them and therefore have no specific recommendations. There are also a number of websites, such as: http://www.gpsinformation.net/. General reading on the topic or reading online reviews of your GPS can also be helpful. (A search engine is your friend...)

GPSes aren't magic--they can make errors or give inaccurate locations under certain conditions. By gaining experience with them when they are not needed, you will be better able to recognize such errors or error-prone conditions. The experience will be useful if you need them in a critical situation...

FWIW, I just picked up a 62s myself. (I have had a 60CSx and several earlier models for a number of years.) I have spent much of the last several days exploring the beast. I found it to be harder to figure out than the 60CSx* and the defaults to be, IMO, much worse. It is better now that I have customized it, but it looks like there are still some things that I consider to be important but may not be able to "fix". I also learned some new things about the 60CSx in the process... (Still haven't decided whether I should keep the 62s or return it in favor of my old 60CSx.)

* To be fair, some of my difficulty figuring out the 62s may be that I am very familiar with the 60CSx and the 62s is different...

So keep playing with it and if you have specific questions we will try to answer them here. There is a lot of good info in past threads here on VFTT but it might take a bit of digging to find some of it. (BTW, it may be easier to find them with Google's advanced search than with the internal search feature.)

Enjoy your new toy!

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

In my nearly 30 years of software design experience, there are two general approaches:

1. The software reflects the hardware ("Your implementation is showing")
2. The software reflects what the user wants (This is what makes Apple the #1 market cap company...)

#2 is much harder to get right, and Garmin isn't interested in trying. They're likely to lose market to the smart phone.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

2. The software reflects what the user wants (This is what makes Apple the #1 market cap company...)

#2 is much harder to get right, and Garmin isn't interested in trying. They're likely to lose market to the smart phone.

It is my understanding that the hand-held GPSes have already lost market to smart phones. Many users don't know, don't care, or don't want to carry a stand-alone GPS. Hopefully there will be enough of a market for the stand-alone units that they will continue to be available for those of us who want them.

Unfortunately there have been some changes in the (newer) 62s compared to the (older) 60CSx that have already reduced its utility. Perhaps the dumbing down has already started...

Doug

 

[Remix]

A little thread drift here, but while we are talking about Garmin software..

In my nearly 30 years of software design experience, there are two general approaches:

1. The software reflects the hardware ("Your implementation is showing")
2. The software reflects what the user wants (This is what makes Apple the #1 market cap company...)

#2 is much harder to get right, and Garmin isn't interested in trying. They're likely to lose market to the smart phone.

Tim

My Forerunner 305 just died last night. Using a program on a PC, I could download a history of my workouts, and plot heart rate versus time, distance, elevation whatever....

Am I understanding correctly that all new Garmin fitness products with GPS require you to upload their contents to their site to store, record, and analyze the data, and that you can't do it on a PC? Why would I want to give them that data?

 

[TomK]

Thanks for the encouragement

Kevin, Tim, and DougPaul, thanks for the encouragement and hints.

I found that moving the location arrow will get me not only the distance, but a N,S,E,W,NE,SE,SW, or NW bearing. Would like a degree bearing, but it's a start.

The newer Garmin GPS units apparantly do away with the 500 point per track limit - here is a url with the details:

https://support.garmin.com/support/...caseId={0b02f820-03db-11e0-e050-000000000000}

GPSMAP 62 / 78

2,000 GPX files
2,000 waypoints
5,000 geocaches
200 routes, 250 points per route
200 saved tracks
2,000 archive tracks*
10,000 points per track
100 custom map tiles

The web page has limit info for some other Garmin GPS units.

Just to make sure, I loaded a couple tracks that I had verified had over 500 points, and they don't appear to be truncated when displayed on my 62S.

I imagine the market for Automotive GPS is much larger than the market for trail GPS, so it would not surprise me if the bulk of the manufacturer's attention is not on the trail GPS market.

Been taking the 62S on lots of short hikes nearby, and gradually getting to know it's quirks, searching VFTT and the net at large for info. Thanks!

 

[DougPaul]

I found that moving the location arrow will get me not only the distance, but a N,S,E,W,NE,SE,SW, or NW bearing. Would like a degree bearing, but it's a start.

It's a settable mode--I set mine to degrees, true north reference. (I also keep my compass set to true headings.)

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

On the 76CSx it's under Menu->Setup->Heading->Display -> { Degrees | Cardinal Letters | Mils } (as is the true north setting)

Tim

 

[TomK]

Found it! Thanks!