GPS recommendation, please

[forestgnome]

My needs are a bit different than those of most of our bushwackers. I have two reasons for getting a GPS:

I would like to be able to give GPS coordinates to F&G or FS should I find anything I'd like to report. For instance, I found a dead adult bull moose on Big Bickford Mtn., but I could only give a very rough idea of the location because I honestly don't care much where I am when I'm out exploring. I'm never interested in finding a summit. I just explore habitat and use the sun as I go along. So, if I happen upon something I'd like to report it would be great to have coodinates.

Also, is it true that the GPS can be used as a homing device? If so, then that would be a bonus in case I get injured and fail to show up at home and my cell phone gets no signal.

It certainly does not have to be a fancy unit. It just has to provide coordinates of a given spot.

Thanks for any help

 

[Kevin Rooney]

My needs are a bit different than those of most of our bushwackers. I have two reasons for getting a GPS:

I would like to be able to give GPS coordinates to F&G or FS should I find anything I'd like to report. For instance, I found a dead adult bull moose on Big Bickford Mtn., but I could only give a very rough idea of the location because I honestly don't care much where I am when I'm out exploring. I'm never interested in finding a summit. I just explore habitat and use the sun as I go along. So, if I happen upon something I'd like to report it would be great to have coodinates.

Also, is it true that the GPS can be used as a homing device? If so, then that would be a bonus in case I get injured and fail to show up at home and my cell phone gets no signal.

It certainly does not have to be a fancy unit. It just has to provide coordinates of a given spot.

Thanks for any help

If you only need coordinates for a specific location, then nearly any GPS should do. The stock answer for what to buy has been either the Garmin 60CSx or their Vista HCx, but ... those are way more GPS than you've spec-ed out. Probably the entry-level Garmin, which I think is a Geko, would work.

As for homing device - short of a personal locator beacon device, about the only thing on the market I'm aware of is the Spot.

 

[audrey]

Forestgnome, I'm curious...why report a dead moose? Is it because they'd want to see what he died of though apparently healthy?

 

[DougPaul]

My needs are a bit different than those of most of our bushwackers. I have two reasons for getting a GPS:

I would like to be able to give GPS coordinates to F&G or FS should I find anything I'd like to report. For instance, I found a dead adult bull moose on Big Bickford Mtn., but I could only give a very rough idea of the location because I honestly don't care much where I am when I'm out exploring. I'm never interested in finding a summit. I just explore habitat and use the sun as I go along. So, if I happen upon something I'd like to report it would be great to have coodinates.

Any basic (hiking) GPS will do this. See http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26163. The extra features of a mapping unit (eg Garmin 60CSx) are primarily useful for navigation.

Also, is it true that the GPS can be used as a homing device? If so, then that would be a bonus in case I get injured and fail to show up at home and my cell phone gets no signal.

No a GPS is not a homing device. If you want a homing device, look at a PLB or Spot. The PLB is probably a more reliable way of calling for help which rescuers can home on. Many of your "moosey" areas are poor radio locations (low, vegetated).

Strictly speaking, it is possible to home in on any radio transmitter, so if you carry an FRS or Ham radio (and the rescuers know that you have one and what frequency you will be on) they may be able to home in on it. Unless you are able to contact someone on the radio (or on a cell phone), the rescue will have to be initiated by some other method.

IMO, the PLB is your best choice.

Doug

 

[bcborder]

High-sensitivity receivers

It certainly does not have to be a fancy unit. It just has to provide coordinates of a given spot.

My first GPS unit, a Garmin etrex Vista, could not always lock on the satellites in narrow valleys or under dense tree cover. And, even under clear sky, I sometimes had to wait up to five minutes for the unit to fix its location on power up.

I upgraded to a GPSmap 60CSx last year and I can walk around with it in the bottom of my pack and and I've yet to lose the satellites, no matter the terrain. And if the batteries are running low it beeps.

I'd definitely be looking at a "high sensitivity" GPS, even if you only want coordinates.

 

[DougPaul]

I'd definitely be looking at a "high sensitivity" GPS, even if you only want coordinates.

I wouldn't consider anything else.

See http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=26163

Doug

 

[BobC]

Not sure a basic GPS is going to make you happy. Similar to what bcborder said above, I bought a Garmin Etrex Legend and found that it rarely worked under any kind of serious tree cover. I've heard that any of the Garmin models that end in 'x' have a stronger antenna, but of course, they're the more expensive models.

 

[NeoAkela]

I don't know about the more basic models, so I'm afraid that this won't help answer your original question. But, you never know if you might wish to do more with your GPS someday, such as mapping, charts, and other fun diversions, so it might be better to shell out a little more for something above the basic model.

I've had my Garmin 60csx for a few years now and it has never let me down... never lost a signal, even in Mahoosuc Notch, or the Subway in King Ravine. I keep it in my belt pocket with no external antenna, and with full exposure to the cold on winter days. Two AA batteries and it is good to go for a full day or two. I've read some reviews on other models losing signal on occasion and battery life quickly, which was why I finally settled on this one.

Of course, with a Garmin GPS you have to figure in another $100 for the proprietary topo software.

 

[DougPaul]

Not sure a basic GPS is going to make you happy. Similar to what bcborder said above, I bought a Garmin Etrex Legend and found that it rarely worked under any kind of serious tree cover. I've heard that any of the Garmin models that end in 'x' have a stronger antenna, but of course, they're the more expensive models.

In Garmin GPS model names:
* x = removable memory card
* H = high sensitivity
* S = sensors (magnetic compass and barometric altimeter)
* C = color display
But this does not apply to all models.

* 60CSx/60Cx, 76CSx/76Cx: high sensitivity, removable memory card
* all eTrex H models (both mapping and non-mapping): high sensitivity
* all Colorado, Oregon are high sensitivity (IMO, the 60CSx is better and cheaper)

And no the difference is not a "stronger antenna". Both patch and quad helix antennas have similar performance. (The advantage of one over the other is a common myth.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

I don't know about the more basic models, so I'm afraid that this won't help answer your original question. But, you never know if you might wish to do more with your GPS someday, such as mapping, charts, and other fun diversions, so it might be better to shell out a little more for something above the basic model.

I've had my Garmin 60csx for a few years now and it has never let me down...

Agreed. I use both topo and road maps in mine.

IMO, the mapping is worth the extra cost. Also, IMO, the 60CSx is the best hiking GPS available. (The 76CSx is electrically identical--some people prefer one, some the other. The best way to choose is to go to a store and try both in your hand.)

Doug

 

[forestgnome]

Forestgnome, I'm curious...why report a dead moose? Is it because they'd want to see what he died of though apparently healthy?

Audrey, F&G likes to hear about this stuff because they like to see cause of death. I assume they monitor wasting disease and other diseases and ticks, etc., and they'd also like to know if one was shot and not removed. The one I found had died very recently. Nearby, I had a wonderful close encounter with a huge, golden coyote who, I believe, had been feasting on it.

Thanks for the feedback and the Garmin 60csx is most likely the choice.

happy off-trailin'

 

[Paradox]

Can an ordinary cell phone that is turned on, be homed in on? I have heard some claim that it can be. On Law & Order they are always finding perps by where a specific call bounces off a cell tower.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Can an ordinary cell phone that is turned on, be homed in on? I have heard some claim that it can be. On Law & Order they are always finding perps by where a specific call bounces off a cell tower.

To answer your question, I did a search (hmmm, where have I read that before? ) and found this interesting link.

Actually, I wanted to know the answer myself (and without having Doug Paul tell me!)

Edit: An excerpt from that article - "So, in general, you can not track someone using their cell phone, unless the person you want to track has the right kind of cell phone, connected to the right network, with the right service." If you go to the article, there are links in some of the key words above.

 

[DougPaul]

Can an ordinary cell phone that is turned on, be homed in on? I have heard some claim that it can be. On Law & Order they are always finding perps by where a specific call bounces off a cell tower.

Such TV shows often exaggerate technical capabilities--I consider them to be semi-science fiction. Hardly a useful source of info.

To answer your question, I did a search (hmmm, where have I read that before? ) and found this interesting link.

Actually, I wanted to know the answer myself (and without having Doug Paul tell me!)

However, in this case, Doug Paul isn't sure that he agrees with the site...

Edit: An excerpt from that article - "So, in general, you can not track someone using their cell phone, unless the person you want to track has the right kind of cell phone, connected to the right network, with the right service." If you go to the article, there are links in some of the key words above.

(This article appears to focus on commercial cellphone tracking services. Paradox's question was about the capability.)


You may recall that cellphone fixes were obtained on the missing climbers on Mt Hood (the fix was at the snow cave near the summit) and the family that got lost in the backroads of Oregon (mother and children survived, father died). I believe these fixes were obtained by trilateralization.

The FCC has mandated in 1996 that the cellphone system had to be able to locate a cellphone within 125m by 2001. One solution is GPS within the cellphone, but a number of other techniques have been explored.

The simplest method for cell phone location is the location of the tower used by the cellphone. This isn't very accurate--the error can be miles. (The cellphone system must do this to allow incoming calls.)

Another method is triangulation: each tower receiving the signal measures the angle-of-arrival. One tower gives a line-of-location, two towers give a point. (This is how we use our compasses to determine our location.) The accuracy depends on the distance from the towers and the accuracy of the angle measurements--I doubt that this method is very accurate.

A third method is trilateralization. The cellphone network employs very precise timing. Thus it is possible to determine the received signal time difference between two towers. With two towers, it is possible to locate the transmitter to a line, with three, it is possible to locate the transmitter to a (2-dimentional) point. I believe this can be accurate to 100m or so. (This same technique is used by GPS and Loran.)

A fourth technique is location fingerprinting ("radio camera"). Many locations give a unique pattern or "fingerprint" of reflections from nearby objects. The patterns are memorized by sending a known-location transmitter around to various locations and recording their reflection patterns. An incoming signal can be compared to these patterns and thus located. This is reported to be accurate to ~40m.

More info at:
http://vecinillo.blogspot.com/2008/02/metodos-de-localizacion-de-posicion-del.html
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CMN/is_1998_Oct_1/ai_53137306/pg_1
http://www.allbusiness.com/information/telecommunications/721031-1.html
http://spaceodyssey.dmns.org/NR/rdo...460A-8DFE-88AC0919038C/1346/GPScartmanual.doc
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_phone_tracking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSM_localization


The cellphone system has to continuously track all operational cellphones to the level of the nearest tower (otherwise you couldn't take incoming calls). The phones must periodically communicate with the nearest tower to do this. (An out-of-range phone must also transmit every now and then to see if there is a tower within range.)

AFAIK, the cellphone companies do not continuously track everyone to higher accuracy than the nearest tower, but it is clear from the two cases in Oregon that they can check their records and locate cellphones in specific instances. (The capability for continuous tracking may or may not exist--technically it is possible.) And the law requires them to locate the phone to ~125m accuracy for 911 calls.

Doug

 

[Chip]

Also, is it true that the GPS can be used as a homing device? If so, then that would be a bonus in case I get injured and fail to show up at home and my cell phone gets no signal.

I think you might be thinking of the Garmin Rino's that are 2 way radios with GPS's. One unit can "find" the other if they are both on (and the batteries haven't died). Maybe someone could explain further.

Hey: Here's one for DougPaul: How does GPS satellite technology prove/demonstrate Einstein's Theory of Relativity ?

 

[DougPaul]

I think you might be thinking of the Garmin Rino's that are 2 way radios with GPS's. One unit can "find" the other if they are both on (and the batteries haven't died). Maybe someone could explain further.

Rhinos are a GPS combined with an FRS radio--they transmit their location over the FRS radio.

Hey: Here's one for DougPaul: How does GPS satellite technology prove/demonstrate Einstein's Theory of Relativity ?

I'm not interested in playing quiz games. The answer is readily available on the internet and can easily be found with only one search.

Speed of movement slows the satellite clocks, lower gravity at orbital altitude speeds the clocks, as per Einstein's Theory of Relativity. If corrections were not applied, the GPS system would become useless within a few hours. (To mollify some non-believers, a switch was put in the early GPS satellites to apply the correction or not. Needless to say, the correction was left on.) This is all from memory.

Doug

 

[PeterM]

TopoGrafix ExpertGPS Software?

Doug ( & Others )

I just got my new GPSMAP60CSx yesterday - moving up from Magellan's SporTrak Pro & TOPO software from Y2k

I didn't get any mapping program, but found TopoGrafix ExpertGPS online - its out of Stowe, MA and looks like it offers alot at $49

But I don't get vibes that its very accepted - only 2 search references came up going back to 2005. Any members with experience using ExpertGPS?

http://www.topografix.com/

Thanks / Peter

 

[DougPaul]

I just got my new GPSMAP60CSx yesterday - moving up from Magellan's SporTrak Pro & TOPO software from Y2k

Enjoy your new toy...

I didn't get any mapping program, but found TopoGrafix ExpertGPS online - its out of Stowe, MA and looks like it offers alot at $49

I have no experience with that program.

The critical difference between Garmin Mapsource and all others is that Mapsource can load maps into a Garmin GPS while the others cannot.

FWIW, I have several Garmin topo and road map products (and load a combination into my GPS). I also have NG TOPO! Northeast. The Garmin topo maps are DLGs (digital line graphs) of the USGS topos which can be displayed over a wide range of scales (needed for the GPS) while the NG TOPO! are DRGs (digital raster graphics, images) of the USGS paper topos. The NG TOPO! maps are nicer to look at while the Garmin have wider coverage, can be viewed at a wider range of scales, and can be loaded into the GPS. I use them both.

Doug

 

[Trail Bandit]

Hi,
Your choice of GPS is great. I have used a program called FUGAWI to interface with the GPS receiver for downloading and uploading tracks, routes, and waypoints. The nice thing about FUGAWI is that you can scan in a map, geolocate it, and then use it with your GPS. As you get more involved. you may want to check out Global Mapper, a program that has a vast array of features that you may want to use. With some other free software, you will even be able to load your own maps into your GPS. The Garmin maps, in the past, have been made from the USGS 1:100,000 topo maps, and are lacking in detail. Thay have promised to advance to the 1:24000 scale topos. Still, your own homemade base map can be better because you can add trails, etc that aren't on the USGS maps.

 

[OldMan]

I was in the same boat last year, selecting a new GPS after my SportTrak Map was stolen from my truck. There are several things I considered important in selecting a new GPS:

- Must maintain a satellite lock while hiking in the woods
- Batteries must be able to last 12+ hours
- Must have expandable storage to add additional maps
- Must be easy to read the screen in bright sun (unlike cell phones!)
- The ability to record tracks and upload to computer for review

After reading many user reviews I selected the Garmin 60CSx. I've used it for a full season of hiking I'm still very happy with it. I took it with me on all my hikes of the NH48 and collected tracks.

Pros:
- I never lost a signal once on any hike I've done
- The batteries and lasted a full 2 long days of hiking (Mt Cabot/Mt Wamback - Day 1 & Mt Isolation - Day 2).
- I added a 2GB microSD card where I keep the Topo 2008 and the National Parks East maps which cover the White Mountains.
- The screen is very easy to read in the bright sun.
- The uploaded tracks give you a nice review of your hike and an elevation profile
- The unit is well build. I dropped it several times and banged it on rocks more time than I should and it's held up very well.
- The controls are easy to operate
- The provided belt clip keeps the GPS securely attached to my pack
- I like the summits are recorded on the maps so you know when you have reached the true summit. However they are only as accurate as the map they are recorded on so beware.

Cons:
- The trip meter is not accurate when climbing steep trails. It doesn't seem to be calibrated very well for hiking slow and it records this time as stopped. The track time recorded when you save a track however is accurate.
- The National Parks East maps have most of the trails in the White Mountains on them, however they are mostly inaccurate ;'(
- In general GPS are not good for seeing whats around you because the screens are too small. I always carry a paper map and compass to help guide me on the trail and what landmarks I can see.
- Saved tracks are limited to 500 track points and drop the time/date info that is collected in a raw track. Fortunately you can record raw tracks to the microSD card.

Garmin frequently upgrades the firmware which is a good sign. I do wish the maps were more accurate. I have played a bit with creating my own maps and its not too difficult. There are plenty of resources out there to help with that. I find the most accurate trail maps are the once you create by actually hiking the trail. I hope to use my GPS this winter to keep me on trail by following my summer tracks I recorded.