Grand Canyon trip - looking for advice

[TCD]

Lots of good info on this thread.

I'm interested in doing a rim to rim eventually. We do plenty of backpacking, but I like to day hike when I'm traveling. I know you can stay at the Phantom Ranch and not carry tent, etc.

But all the "authorities" (Park Service, guide services, etc.) say it's impossible to hike down from the North Rim to PR in one day (14 miles, downhill). A couple people have said "Actually, it's no problem." I'm interested in more opinions. Is it reasonable to plan a trip where you walk down from the North Rim to PR as a day hike, not carrying tent, sleeping bag, etc.? We routinely do much longer hikes, with LOTS of uphill, as day hikes here at home...

 

[DougPaul]

But all the "authorities" (Park Service, guide services, etc.) say it's impossible to hike down from the North Rim to PR in one day (14 miles, downhill). A couple people have said "Actually, it's no problem." I'm interested in more opinions. Is it reasonable to plan a trip where you walk down from the North Rim to PR as a day hike, not carrying tent, sleeping bag, etc.? We routinely do much longer hikes, with LOTS of uphill, as day hikes here at home...

The canyon can be hot and dry and the trails are long and may not have any available water. Every year a few hikers try to do too much and need to be rescued or die. The Rangers are trying to reduce the number of casualties...

That said, the main corridor trails (Bright Angel, N and S Kaibab) are relatively easy (they are mule trails...) but SK has no water and both SK and BA have little to no shade and ~4K vertical (S Rim) or ~5K vertical (N Rim). Even if you are used to hiking the distances in the NE, the heat and dry air can still get you. Also it is canyon hiking--you have to climb (all the way to the top) to get out. Last I knew, there was no cellphone service in the canyon. (However, I was able to get cell signals from the upper Nankoweap Trail on the N Rim--I had a direct line-of-sight to a town on the other side of the canyon... I'm sure I would have lost them had I dropped down below the altitude of the S Rim.)

The non-corridor trails may not be maintained--check in with the Backcountry Office before hiking them. (You will also need to stop there for permits if camping.)

It wouldn't hurt to read up on Desert hiking and survival. In certain circumstances, hiking at night may be preferable to during the day. And there are a number of guidebooks for GC to choose from.

Many reasonably fit hikers have made it from the rim to the river and back in a day. Some of the ultra-runners have run R2R2R (rim to the other rim and back) in a single push.

FWIW, When I was in high school, I hiked down SK to Phantom Ranch and out via BA the next day with my family and more recently day-hiked the Tonto trail between SK and BA trails from the S Rim and did some day hikes from the N Rim.)

Doug

 

[Will]

I know you can stay at the Phantom Ranch and not carry tent, etc... But all the "authorities" (Park Service, guide services, etc.) say it's impossible to hike down from the North Rim to PR in one day (14 miles, downhill)

It is not impossible at all. After a couple of hours downhill pounding your knees, it's pretty much a level walk with water all along the way and shade always reachable in reasonable time. It's not so much a trail as a sidewalk. You do have to be careful of the heat. From late June through July, August and very early September it's pretty close to crazy, but still not impossible. Even outside the furnace season, you can get very hot days so you have to be careful. Lots of breaks, in shady spots, water both to drink and to splash on or immerse the body in (my choice), salty snacks. You don't want speed here, so plan accordingly so you don't miss dinner. There are trips where I'll stop for a minute in just about every nook and cranny of shade I see.

Is it reasonable to plan a trip where you walk down from the North Rim to PR as a day hike, not carrying tent, sleeping bag, etc.? We routinely do much longer hikes, with LOTS of uphill, as day hikes here at home

If you mean day hike in the sense of staying at Phantom Ranch, sure. If you mean turn around and go back, same day, I would not do it. People do, all the time, but I've seen some of them in distress, not pretty. I believe it's too punishing to the body, even if you never develop overt symptoms, I advise strongly against it.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

TCD - The north rim of the GC is about 1K' higher than the southern rim, so elevation-wise in terms of a hike it's not much different than going from the south rim to FR and returning, although it's a few miles further to reach the bottom if you start from the north rim.

I think the issue may be the logistics of getting between the rims - they're a LONG way away in terms of highway miles. You've probably considered that, but if you haven't - look at a map. Also - keep in mind that access to the north rim is closed during the colder months - those same months that make a rim to bottom and return much more doable.

Will - I didn't find my N. Kaibab to FR and back via Bright Angel in the same day an epic. Granted, I was/am very acclimated to hiking in dry, desert conditions, but I still won't hesitate to suggest that anyone comfortable with doing multiple peaks in the NE could do a similar loop in cooler weather without being overly taxed. The trails are wide, well-graded and the footing is sure. Don't wish to appear argumentative, but if I understand your post correctly, my experience appears quite different than yours.

As for cell phone service - my experience in late January was that I lost it (Verizon) shortly after dropping below the rim. The rangers at PR do use a sat phone, however. Am quite sure they also have local radio communications with the rim.

 

[DougPaul]

I think the issue may be the logistics of getting between the rims - they're a LONG way away in terms of highway miles. You've probably considered that, but if you haven't - look at a map. Also - keep in mind that access to the north rim is closed during the colder months - those same months that make a rim to bottom and return much more doable.

215mi. I have read of a commercial shuttle. Don't recall where.

Note on the trail stats (the river is much closer to the S Rim than the N Rim):
* S Rim to river (campground) via SK tr: 6.9mi, 4740 vert ft.
* N Rim to river (campground) via NK tr: 14.0mi, 5770 vert ft.

Doug

 

[TCD]

Thanks, all! Yes, have considered all of the above. There is a shuttle, but reservation logistics are a pain. The Park Service in its infinite wisdom has created a situation where the North and South Rim hotel reservations are managed by one concessionaire; the PR is managed by a second concessionaire; and the shuttle is managed by yet a third concessionaire. Nice mess.

We do the Great Range traverse in a day in the Adirondacks every year; 23 miles and 9K' climbing, so that's why it struck me as odd that the offical line is that a one way, 14 mile downhill on groomed trails is impossible in a day - sounds like a 4 hour hike.

Our tentative plan would be to go as early as possible after the roads and facilities open on the NR in the spring. Start at SR; get shutttled to NR. Stay a night on NR; walk in a day down to PR; spend a couple days walking around the bottom on short day hikes; walk in a day up from PR to SR.

Seems straightforward, but it's next to impossible to set it up.

 

[Will]

Will - I didn't find my N. Kaibab to FR and back via Bright Angel in the same day an epic ... my experience appears quite different than yours.

I can't quite understand the trip you're describing. FR = Phantom Ranch probably? But I can't decihper "N. Kaibab and back via Bright Angel" unless (assuming you meant Phantom Ranch) you meant "South Kaibab" and (assuming that as well), that's a substantially different trip. Like about 11 miles shorter.

Let me be clear: a day trip from the North Rim to Phantom Ranch and then returning to the North Rim is a bad idea. If you meant to say that it would be no big deal for anyone used to doing a couple of White Mountain Peaks as a day trip, I disagree. While you have a valid point about cooler weather that gave me pause to reconsider, the facilities at the North Rim would be closed and there would be ice on the upper North Kaibab. In fact there's one water runoff that's frequently like walking through a freezing cold waterfall in the mid day sun and then freezes solid and you've got to get by it. This would not be a lot of fun for a first or second trip to the Canyon; I'd do a lot of other trips first.

In any event, I don't think by "day trip" the poster really meant round trip but rather one-way then staying at Phantom Ranch. I responded to the round trip idea just in case anyone would actually consider that a good idea, which you apparently did.

 

[DougPaul]

Thanks, all! Yes, have considered all of the above. There is a shuttle, but reservation logistics are a pain. The Park Service in its infinite wisdom has created a situation where the North and South Rim hotel reservations are managed by one concessionaire; the PR is managed by a second concessionaire; and the shuttle is managed by yet a third concessionaire. Nice mess.

I checked the mileage--it is more like 215mi.

We do the Great Range traverse in a day in the Adirondacks every year; 23 miles and 9K' climbing, so that's why it struck me as odd that the offical line is that a one way, 14 mile downhill on groomed trails is impossible in a day - sounds like a 4 hour hike.

Only if the heat isn't a factor... I have read an account from a crew hiking down the NK tr where they had to stop and soak in the Bright Angel Creek to cool off. There is also a TR here where one of the party members became dehydrated and the other party members had to "rescue" him. Hyponatremia is also a risk.

The general recommendation is that hikers carry 1 gallon (4 liters) of water per day--I carried 4.5 liters last time I went in. I suggest a few shorter hikes to get used to hiking in the canyon before going for multi-day routes.

Our tentative plan would be to go as early as possible after the roads and facilities open on the NR in the spring. Start at SR; get shutttled to NR. Stay a night on NR; walk in a day down to PR; spend a couple days walking around the bottom on short day hikes; walk in a day up from PR to SR.

The NR is generally open from mid-May to mid-October due to snow. By mid-May, the inner Canyon can get pretty warm.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

I can't quite understand the trip you're describing. FR = Phantom Ranch probably? But I can't decihper "N. Kaibab and back via Bright Angel" unless (assuming you meant Phantom Ranch) you meant "South Kaibab" and (assuming that as well), that's a substantially different trip. Like about 11 miles shorter.

His route description didn't make sense to me either.

Doug

 

[pudgy_groundhog]

so that's why it struck me as odd that the official line is that a one way, 14 mile downhill on groomed trails is impossible in a day - sounds like a 4 hour hike.

I've found that National Parks, and especially one as highly visited as the Grand Canyon, always err on the side of caution and are very conservative. Even with all their warnings, people get into trouble there every year - so can you imagine what would happen if they weren't so conservative? There are signs everywhere in the park - in the newspaper, in the shuttles buses, on the trails, in the visitor's centers - everywhere - warning people about hiking in the canyon.

This year we camped at Indian Garden and on our way out the next day we passed a guy who was dressed in jeans and a light jacket carrying a small water bottle. Turns out he day hiked the day before and was too tired to hike back up - so had to stay overnight unexpectedly at Indian Garden. The wind howled all night, it was really cold, and it was snowing the next morning. He had no food, no backpack, no proper clothing, etc. He curled up in the small book room at the campground overnight. Nuts!

And even experienced people get into trouble. There's a poster on backpacker.com who's an experienced backpacker and was with an experienced group - his wife died in the canyon.

Anyway, I don't think it would be an issue for you to hike from the North Rim to Phantom Ranch in a day and stay overnight (with enough water, not too hot, etc. etc). When we stayed in March Steve did a run from Phantom Ranch a good way up to the north rim and back down (20-22 miles). It's a nice trail.

I also wouldn't completely rule out backpacking - easier to get permits and the flexibility of camping allows for a larger choice of routes.

 

[DougPaul]

I've found that National Parks, and especially one as highly visited as the Grand Canyon, always err on the side of caution and are very conservative. Even with all their warnings, people get into trouble there every year - so can you imagine what would happen if they weren't so conservative? There are signs everywhere in the park - in the newspaper, in the shuttles buses, on the trails, in the visitor's centers - everywhere - warning people about hiking in the canyon.

My first time there we met some people who were drinking directly out of the river (lots of sediment). They hadn't believed the signs advising hikers to carry water... They didn't have any food either.

Fortunately they were on the BA trail which has water available on the upper half.

Doug

 

[Will]

we camped at Indian Garden and on our way out the next day we passed a guy who was dressed in jeans and a light jacket carrying a small water bottle. Turns out he day hiked the day before and was too tired to hike back up - so had to stay overnight unexpectedly

I've seen people totally gassed out at the communal water/bench area at the downhill side of IG, late in the afternoon. They'd hiked down to the Ranch, got halfway back up and now they're hurting bad, in real trouble. Gasping not so much for oxygen as to try to ventilate. Sometimes they're at least _drinking_ water (sometimes too much, a serious and under-estimated problem), but they need to be soaking wet head to foot and they can't think that out. They say that's too cold, they're chilled; bad sign when the temp is 100F + and they've been in the blazing sun for hours without a cloud in sight. I do what I can, check to see if a ranger is there (frequently not until early evening).

I've also found them at the water stations closer to the top. That's easier to handle. Once, no flashlight and already dusk, OK there goes my spare. Once completely away from water and that time it totally ruined my trip to take care of the person, never could get back on permit after a long, slow escort to safety.

And this is the "short" round trip, around 17 miles: South Rim down to Phantom Ranch and back up to the South Rim. Add 11+ miles across the deepest, hottest part of the Canyon and that's the round trip North Rim to Phantom Ranch and back.

 

[RoySwkr]

I've found that National Parks, and especially one as highly visited as the Grand Canyon, always err on the side of caution and are very conservative. Even with all their warnings, people get into trouble there every year - so can you imagine what would happen if they weren't so conservative?

Remember that the Park Service has to cater its advice to the lowest common denominator - some true couch potatoes plus those who exercise in gyms or on tracks but aren't used to the backcountry. Even if you have camping gear, they don't want you setting up between official campsites when you tire out. Guides want you to remember gourmet food and relaxing not a deathmarch. Even careful screening may not work - last month I went to a slideshow about a weeklong Sierra Club backpack into the canyon where 2 people had to quit halfway through the first day when they just weren't making it.

But a word of caution here - there is a footrace up Mt Washington but not the other direction because extended downhill can be hard on knees and feet. Several people on the Sierra Club trip had boot problems going down. There's a lot of elevation loss to Phantom Ranch and you still have to walk back up eventually so your knees better not hurt too much. Get a ride up Mt Washington and walk out Dry River or Rocky Branch (when the trails reopen to get a feel for a long downhill day.

No, the proposed trip is not impossible. There are plenty of people who go rim-to-rim in a day, and every year a few save the nasty car shuttle by going rim-to-rim-to-rim. But I can't render an opinion on whether it is a good idea for any particular person.

 

[carla]

I vote for a rim to rim hike

If you have the time and really want to get the most out of the experience, I highly recommend a rim to rim hike. You need to plan in the extra time for the shuttle of course, and a night's lodging on both ends. It does take a little logistical forbearance, but well worth it.

A friend and I did it last year, the first week in October, and it was great. A few pointers:

1. Do it from North rim to South rim. Ie park your car at the south rim, shuttle to north, and then walk back to your car. The shuttle was easy to arrange: Trans Canyon Shuttle: 928-638-2820
2. Stay the first night at Cottonwood. It's not a long walk and then you can enjoy the afternoon at the creek.
3. Stay the second night at the campground outside Phantom ranch and eat the dinner there, and take lunch (cuts down on how much you have to carry overall, as someone else mentioned).
4. Hike out the next day back up to the south rim. There is plenty of water along the way if you take the bright angel trail up. It is steep, but no more so than White Mountain trails. Very hot and exposed, though. Drink water!
5. Have a celebratory dinner at El Tovar, the fancy place at the south rim

You do need to get the camping permits in advance, though, so take whatever they give you. You may not get your first choice, so you have to be flexible and plan your route around that.

Though many have said it in earlier posts--do NOT try to go to the bottom and back in one day. a) it's just too freaking hot most of the time, even in the spring and fall and b) what's the rush? it's gorgeous and you will wish you had planned to spend more time in the canyon, not less, believe me!

 

[TCD]

Thanks for the ideas!

I'm sure I could hike down and back up in a day (friends have, and I am fitter and more heat tolerant than they are), but I have never planned on it.

Why not stay AT Phantom Ranch? I'm getting the impression that there is something wrong with PR; so many people seem to want to camp outside the gate and just buy a few meals there. Is there something wrong with the facility? If carrying less is a goal, won't you carry a LOT less if you stay AT the ranch, rather than camping outside it? The thread has me wondering if the place has bedbugs, or some other unsanitary condition...

 

[pudgy_groundhog]

Why not stay AT Phantom Ranch? I'm getting the impression that there is something wrong with PR; so many people seem to want to camp outside the gate and just buy a few meals there. Is there something wrong with the facility? If carrying less is a goal, won't you carry a LOT less if you stay AT the ranch, rather than camping outside it? The thread has me wondering if the place has bedbugs, or some other unsanitary condition...

As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with Phantom Ranch. We've backpacked in the Grand Canyon twice and both times we've chosen to camp. 1) it's harder to get space for Phantom Ranch - you are competing with mule riders and a lot of hikers whose only option is PR since they don't backpack 2) Lot more flexible with camping. If you are staying at Phantom Ranch, that's it. We've liked camping at Indian Garden because sunset at Plateau Point is fantastic. Also, the corridor trails are super busy with a lot of mule and foot traffic. For some people, camping is a way you can get on some of the less traveled trails and find some solitude in the canyon 3) For the three of us it would cost nearly $150 per night just for lodging. Since we like camping anyway, we didn't see any point in spending an extra $300 (we stayed two nights at the bottom) 4) It doesn't bother us, but some people don't like dorm accommodations (they have both cabins and dorm space)

 

[carla]

PR--no issues, but...

As far as I know, there is nothing wrong with Phantom Ranch.

I agree with groundhog on all counts. And want to add that it just feels a bit jarring to all of a sudden be among so many people and buildings at the Ranch. It's not a huge compound or anything, but to me it just felt like too much civilization again, when I wanted more quiet. The campground there is also full of people, to be sure, but for me it still was a good continuation of that "great outdoors" feeling.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

... And want to add that it just feels a bit jarring to all of a sudden be among so many people and buildings at the Ranch. It's not a huge compound or anything, but to me it just felt like too much civilization again, when I wanted more quiet. The campground there is also full of people, to be sure, but for me it still was a good continuation of that "great outdoors" feeling.

This is dependent upon when you visit. When I was there in late January, outside the PS ranger, there were only 2 people at Phantom Ranch. We saw only 3 hikers that day. The other people we saw were on mule trains.

Aside from a bit on snow near the rim, the weather was awesome - sunny, and in the 60's - 70's.

 

[pudgy_groundhog]

Yes, winter will have significantly less visitors (even at the rim). However, if you are doing a rim to rim with a shuttle arrangement, you can't go in winter.

 

[Stan]

I like carla's itinerary for the rim to rim but hadn't thought so much about a night at Cottonwood as a night at Indian Garden ... why not both? ... with consideration for approaching Indian Garden via South Kaibab Trail and a primitive/unmaintained trail shown on my Nat'l Geographic map running roughly from The Tipoff. Time on that tableland would seem fun, any experience here on that or would the River Trail be too good to miss? I also like the notion of lingering longer, not rushing.

Some object to Phantom Ranch but it wouldn't seem much different than an AMC hut in cost and ambience. Good stories and some friendships came from stays at such places.