Hardshells And Weight

[Mike P.]

My preference is a wind-bloc (Soft-shell, late 90's Windstopper) vest. Since arms may be colder, fingers tend not to be as warm but plenty of gloves & mittens.

 

[alexmtn]

??? I was wearing a microfleece layer under the softshell, not a fleece softshell. Is any windstopper jacket considered a "soft shell"? Are all soft shells ultimately some sort of fleece? I have a Marmot jacket that I would say is more of that Polartec Wind Stopper fabric stuff. I was under the impression that was a highly breathable material. I have a similar North Face product that doesn't do that but is a more casual cut that I really don't use for hiking except in summer months.

The moisture was not on my skin. It was the inside of the softshell that was wet. My concern is that it will eventually soak into my mid and base layers and get me cold. The moisture was getting away from my skin through my base layer and the microfleece mid layer but it wasn't getting through the softshell to the outside. Am I misunderstanding what you're trying to say?

From what you've said, I think the key issue is that you were sweating too much, under too many layers for the temps. Next time you're in the conditions you described, try starting out with just the T1 base and the soft shell, with another layer on top just to keep yourself warm until you heat up. Then, as you feel yourself heating up, remove the outer layer. A T1 base + soft shell combo is exactly what would keep me feeling just right hiking in 30 degree temps (and mind you, I'm usually the guy in the room who's cold when everyone else is hot).

When it's cold out, there's no need to sweat a lot. It's your body's mechanism for cooling via evaporation when conductive cooling isn't possible. So just put conduction to work by adjusting your layers to permit the cold to keep you cool. Managing your layers to avoid profuse sweating is what winter travel is all about. It's hard, and it takes practice and experimentation--but before you'll know to try anything, you've got to develop the ability to tell that you are indeed heating up and sweating under your layers. If you can't detect the problem, it's hard to remedy it on a timely basis.

Soft shells as a rule do indeed vent drastically more moisture than even the finest breathable hard shells, but of course there are still limits. The goal is to manage your heat so as never to approach those limits. In winter, sweat is not your friend--and if not managed successfully you're at risk of serious hypothermic trouble.

Alex

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I didn't make up this adage but I certainly agree with it: "Below treeline hike cool, above treeline hike warm".

It might help you to learn to be ok with being a little cold while you are hiking; until you get above the treeline, at that point you want to be on the warm side, since when things can go bad quickly.

I find exposing my wrists and head are a good first step before shedding a layer. I also have 1/4 zips on all my layers so I can vent some body heat. Hiking slower also helps.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Some of us run so warm that hiking slower means not finishing a hike. I bring one layer that I expect to get sweaty and change it right before treeline or when I start descending.

I can often be found hiking in short sleeves or maybe with arm warmers. Rarely more than that. If I am not cold at the start I am over dressed.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

I didn't make up this adage but I certainly agree with it: "Below treeline hike cool, above treeline hike warm".

This was the advice given to us in winter school ~30 years ago. It still works...

I find exposing my wrists and head are a good first step before shedding a layer. I also have 1/4 zips on all my layers so I can vent some body heat. Hiking slower also helps.

One can lose a lot of heat by baring one's head.

1/4 zips don't allow me to dump enough heat--I require (and use) full zips on my layers and shells. I also strip down to my (shirt) baselayer and pull the arms up above my elbows if needed.

I generally wear wool pants over long-johns and have found that I can get an extra 10F of heat tolerance by pulling the legs of my long-johns above my knees. On warmer days, I can wear "half-johns" (baselayer boxers) under my wool pants or nylon zip-off leg pants over my long-johns. If I drop the legs, I simply store them in my (long) gaiters. Side-zips on pants can also be opened to dump heat.

Doug

 

[DayTrip]

It might help you to learn to be ok with being a little cold while you are hiking; until you get above the treeline, at that point you want to be on the warm side, since when things can go bad quickly.

.

That is the challenge. I tend to run cold overall and I'm not in the greatest shape of late so pretty much any climbing beyond easier grades and I'm sweating plenty. But I stop often enough to catch my breath which then becomes cold. I don't get into that "temperature zone" that more fit individuals get when they can walk for extended periods without having to stop. I overheat and chill, overheat and chill. I'll just keep experimenting until I get close to an optimum set up.

 

[jfb]

You just need to find the right fabrics that allow you to wear a bit more insulation while allowing the moisture to escape. How hard can that be?

 

[DayTrip]

You just need to find the right fabrics that allow you to wear a bit more insulation while allowing the moisture to escape. How hard can that be?

Should be a piece of cake with my unlimited gear budget.

 

[jfb]

Should be a piece of cake with my unlimited gear budget.

Well, you already know polyester insulation and hardshells don't work.

 

[alexmtn]

That is the challenge. I tend to run cold overall and I'm not in the greatest shape of late so pretty much any climbing beyond easier grades and I'm sweating plenty. But I stop often enough to catch my breath which then becomes cold. I don't get into that "temperature zone" that more fit individuals get when they can walk for extended periods without having to stop. I overheat and chill, overheat and chill. I'll just keep experimenting until I get close to an optimum set up.

You just need to find the right fabrics that allow you to wear a bit more insulation while allowing the moisture to escape. How hard can that be?

Again: the key is to *not* sweat in the first place. As suggested before, wear the layers that keep you warm but not overheated when you're at your hottest in 'hiking mode'. Then, for breaks (and starting out), put another layer over everything. Depending on temps and the duration of your breaks, this could be a puff, fleece, or just a hard shell.

Yes, it's annoying to take a layer off, put it back on, take it off, etc... but still, that's exactly the right thing to do. As you build skill in managing your heat, it will become steadily easier to realize that you're heating up, and it will feel steadily more routine to stop promptly and shed the necessary layer.

Another skill you'll pick up that reduces the above annoyance, is to regulate your pace when in 'hiking mode'. In short, you need to consciously maintain a slow pace when you're in motion. This will do two things for you. First, you won't tire as fast, and hence need to stop/changeover as soon. And second, you won't heat up as much, which will enable you to have a little more insulation on, which will permit you to use something s little lighter to stay warm during breaks. When you get really good at this, you will have found the pace (and layering) at which you can hike continuously, taking a break every 30-60 minutes (60-second pauses don't count).

And of course to keep your exertion level steady, you'll be moving faster on the flats than on the steeps. And as your condition improves, your 'hiking mode' pace will increase. As it increases, you'll be generating more heat, and hence hiking with less insulation.

Alex

 

[DougPaul]

That is the challenge. I tend to run cold overall and I'm not in the greatest shape of late so pretty much any climbing beyond easier grades and I'm sweating plenty. But I stop often enough to catch my breath which then becomes cold. I don't get into that "temperature zone" that more fit individuals get when they can walk for extended periods without having to stop. I overheat and chill, overheat and chill. I'll just keep experimenting until I get close to an optimum set up.

In general, it is best to move at a steady pace and adjust your insulation to maintain your proper heat level. I have seen clueless hikers dripping sweat while keeping their big down jackets tightly zipped and then seen them leaning on trees gasping*. My group has also had to rescue them...

* While we are on the topic of how not to do it, the group was wearing down jackets, jeans, and white mouse boots...

In winter, there are short stops and long stops, but no intermediate stops. Short stops are short enough that you don't get cold, and long stops are long because you have to put on and remove additional insulation to avoid becoming chilled. The problem with intermediate stops is that they are long enough for you get cold, but not long enough for you to change your insulation appropriately. (You can snack, drink, and change insulation during short stops.)

Note: Beginners tend to think that they have to keep a lot of insulation on because it is cold out. Wrong!!! You should adjust your insulation to maintain a proper body heat which can range from down to your base layer when moving to a big down jacket when stopped for an extended period.

Doug

 

[jfb]

Again: the key is to *not* sweat in the first place.

I guess I must have unrealistic expectations on how an effective clothing system should perform.

Note: DayTrip (not me) originally posted the part about running cold overall, etc.

 

[DougPaul]

Should be a piece of cake with my unlimited gear budget.

When I started this game in the mid-1970's, we used separate wind and rain shells and wool sweaters and shirts for insulation. Those who were strapped for cash got much of their wool from Goodwill and other second-hand outlets.

Nowdays, I would replace the separate shells with a waterproof-breathable shell, but wool still works quite well and, in fact, still has some advantages over the more recent high-tech fabrics. The winds of hiking fashion have recently swung back toward wool for some purposes--for instance wool baselayers.

Doug

 

[sierra]

Regardless of what meterials you incorporate, proper layering and proper clothes for the temps and activity are key. Many people simply "overdress". How many times I see groups in the parking lot with full shell suits on and its 30 degrees and little wind. once you find your own system you should be good to go. I left the parking lot the other day, it was 25 degree's and windy. All I had on was softshell pants, no long underwear, a light .5 patagonis fleece top and my shell. Within 20 minutes I dumped the shell and added a vest, also dumped my balacava and added at headband. its about adapting to the conditons and staying on the cool side, sweat is not your friend when hiking, it will draw heat away from your core and make staying warm even harder.

 

[DougPaul]

Regardless of what meterials you incorporate, proper layering and proper clothes for the temps and activity are key. Many people simply "overdress". How many times I see groups in the parking lot with full shell suits on and its 30 degrees and little wind.

There are two basic approaches:
1) Start with enough clothing to be warm in the parking lot and strip down as you warm up.
2) Pre-strip at the parking lot to start with insulation appropriate for after you have warmed up.

Either works as long as you strip down before sweating for approach 1 or don't get too cold before your heat builds up for approach 2. If you are working at a steady level, you will eventually reach a steady state and you should be wearing the proper amount of insulation by then. (And, of course, you add or subtract insulation if you cool down or warm up too much during the hike.)

You can also use an intermediate approach--start "half warm" and strip as needed. This should reduce the number of strip stops.

I would argue that what you are wearing a distance in is much more important than what you are wearing at the trailhead. And even then, there might still be a fairly wide variation because different people produce different amounts of heat.

If you are hiking in a group it is generally better if everyone uses the same approach and synchronizes their strip stops to save time.

Doug

 

[alexmtn]

I guess I must have unrealistic expectations on how an effective clothing system should perform.

Hey, even if your shell vents *all* the moisture wicked over to it by the base and insulation layers, you've still got a problem, which is that those layers are wet, and their insulation value is compromised. That's why you want the cold to cool you (conduction) rather than your sweat (evaporation -- well in this case, attempted evaporation).

Note: DayTrip (not me) originally posted the part about running cold overall, etc.

Apologies -- I fixed that attribution.

 

[jfb]

and their insulation value is compromised.

When the insulation value of my damp clothing is compromised, I add another layer and when the damp one dries, I remove the extra one. In the meantime, I stay comfortably warm.

 

[sierra]

There are two basic approaches:
1) Start with enough clothing to be warm in the parking lot and strip down as you warm up.
2) Pre-strip at the parking lot to start with insulation appropriate for after you have warmed up.

Either works as long as you strip down before sweating for approach 1 or don't get too cold before your heat builds up for approach 2. If you are working at a steady level, you will eventually reach a steady state and you should be wearing the proper amount of insulation by then. (And, of course, you add or subtract insulation if you cool down or warm up too much during the hike.)

You can also use an intermediate approach--start "half warm" and strip as needed. This should reduce the number of strip stops.

I would argue that what you are wearing a distance in is much more important than what you are wearing at the trailhead. And even then, there might still be a fairly wide variation because different people produce different amounts of heat.

If you are hiking in a group it is generally better if everyone uses the same approach and synchronizes their strip stops to save time.

Doug

I agree with your point and just would rather not have to stop in 20 minutes, not to mention, I hate being hot when winter hiking as weird as that sounds.

 

[jfb]

I hate being hot when winter hiking as weird as that sounds.

Me too! But, warm isn't so bad either.

 

[nartreb]

Somebody once said "be bold, start cold" - but that only works for me when I'm with a group that's totally prepared and will go from setting the parking brake to hiking up the trail in under three minutes, and then set a fast pace. Normally, the first thing I do when I park is put on my down jacket, hat and gloves. Then I make last-minute determinations about what gear to bring (snowshoes? full crampons? ice axe?) or wear (insulated pants?), put on my boots, double-check my pack, have a final drink or snack, and maybe a pee break... that's enough time to get horribly cold if I'm not warmly dressed.

I've gotten good at venting while on the march, and at putting a jacket on and off quickly. In winter, a really warm puffy coat is a great thing - put it on every time you come to a full stop, and that's the only "extra" layer to worry about.

Yesterday was a cold morning. Because I was hiking at a slower-than-usual pace, the down jacket never came off completely. Better that way than to be half an hour into your hike before you realize you're under-dressed. The key is to learn to detect when you're getting too warm, and strip immediately. Hat, gloves, and zippers can be adjusted without stopping, and you can transfer a jacket to or from your waist while walking too (by threading one arm at a time out of your backpack), but if you pack intelligently, putting something in or out of your pack only adds a few seconds.