Hardshells And Weight

[DougPaul]

I agree with your point and just would rather not have to stop in 20 minutes, not to mention, I hate being hot when winter hiking as weird as that sounds.

When one hikes solo (as I believe you generally do), one can choose what ever strategy one wants. Certainly reducing clothing change stops saves time.

I don't like being hot when winter hiking either, My starting heat production is pretty low and my hiking heat production is pretty high (my heat builds up over the first 20-30 minutes) so I generally need one or two strip stops to get to my steady-state thermal balance even if I start cool. I also have to adjust my clothing fairly often to compensate for changes in heat production. (Full zips are a big help...)

Doug

 

[alexmtn]

When the insulation value of my damp clothing is compromised, I add another layer and when the damp one dries, I remove the extra one. In the meantime, I stay comfortably warm.

That doesn't make sense. Your layer is wet because you got hot under it and sweated. All that adding another layer is going to do is keep you hot and continuing to sweat, quickly wetting the new layer as well. If you're talking about adding the layer once you've come to rest and are no longer generating heat, then yes, you'll be warmer than without the extra layer (this is what you'd typically do with a puff at a rest break). If you're talking about actually being at rest long enough for a layer to dry while on you and covered by other layers (e.g., overnight), yeah maybe that would work--but recognize that (1) the evaporation from the wet layer is making you less warm than you would be without that layer, which may be OK if you're warm enough and temps won't be getting any colder; and (2) your new layer is gradually getting compromised by the moisture (esp if down is involved).

 

[jfb]

That doesn't make sense.

I'm using the word "compromised" to mean that my insulation is damp and I'm starting to feel chilled. That typically happens if I've hiked up a long hill and the wind increases at treeline, or when I get to a summit and start down. I'll add another layer to stay warm and the moisture from the damp layer migrates to the dry layer and out the shell. It works the same way whether I'm going uphill, downhill or stopped. It works because I wear only wool under my shell and (as everybody knows), wool continues to be an effective insulator when damp. My Puffball and down vests would get saturated and block the moisture migration, so I only wear them to walk my dogs. Fleece is marginal under those conditions because it doesn't draw moisture out to the shell. It took a bit of experimenting, but it works just fine. It's a good thing I didn't need to ask anyone's permission to conduct my clothing experiments!

The Black Diamond Alpine Start shell seems like the kind of shell I prefer. http://www.backcountry.com/black-di...xsczoxOjE6YmNzQ2F0MTExMTA3&skid=BLD005G-AZU-S

 

[sierra]

If you have a wet layer that is compromising your regulation of your temps, you need to get it off. I carry an extra base layer for the summit. I strip down, let the wind dry me off, then add my dry layer and re-dress. This makes the descent way more comfortable, as I rarely sweat going down.

 

[DougPaul]

The worst place for a wet layer is next to your skin. It will chill you the most (evaporating the moisture consumes body heat) and any moisture driven off from it is likely to condense in your outer layers making them damp too. You would be better off putting your additional dry layers on under the wet layer. (However, moisture could wick from the wet to the dry layers.)

There are three basic rules:
1) don't sweat (keep your clothing dry)
2) don't sweat (keep your clothing dry)
3) don't sweat (keep your clothing dry)
The colder the temps, the more important keeping your insulation dry becomes. (The difference can be life or death.)

The only thing that I may get damp is my baselayer when the temps are too high for me to dump enough excess heat. And since I will be wearing only my baselayer under those conditions only it will get damp. In addition, I always have the option of changing or removing it and putting on dry insulating layers.

Damp layers can be dried by hanging them on the outside of your pack and letting the sun and wind do the job.


Beginners tend to focus/obsess on staying warm--experienced winter hikers know that staying cool is more often the issue...

BTW, this has turned into a basic technique for beginners thread. I suggest that anyone who is experiencing these problems attend a winter hiking course. (eg AMC winter school)

Doug

 

[Tom_Murphy]

It's a good thing I didn't need to ask anyone's permission to conduct my clothing experiments!

Your suggestion that it is an effective winter hiking strategy to sweat into your base layer, add a second layer in order to dry the base layer, and then remove the second layer, isn't sound based on my experience.

You added the caveat that "it's wool". Damp wool is not a good insulator; just because wool's insulating rating when wet degrades less than cotton, fleece, or down doesn't mean it is a good idea to sweat into your wool base layers.

IMO your strategy may work fine on a short day hike on a popular trail when the weather holds, but it is not appropriate for any winter hiking that could result in being benighted.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I am watching this thread with intense jealousy of all you fine people who can be outdoors and moving and not generate any sweat. That is simply impossible for me shy of crawling at a snail's pace and so I adopt a strategy of dealing with the inevitable rather than wishfully trying to prevent it.

I.e. I bring multiple layer changes for when I am done with the majority of the up. This problem plagues me on bicycle and XC too.

Tim

 

[hikerbrian]

Your suggestion that it is an effective winter hiking strategy to sweat into your base layer, add a second layer in order to dry the base layer, and then remove the second layer, isn't sound based on my experience.

Well, I think we all have a tendency to project what works for us onto everyone else. I could be wrong, but I suspect JFB has done a fair amount of experimenting with his layering strategy and his system works well for him. Let's also remember that there's a lot of subjectivity in words like "damp" and "compromised."

I personally think changing out of one's base layers on a windy summit and letting the wind dry oneself is absolutely ludicrous. But I'm fairly confident sierra is not new to this game, and his system has worked well for him under a variety of challenging conditions. I wouldn't dream of telling him he's "doing it wrong."

Personally, I haven't bothered to bring an extra base layer in my pack for the past 5 years because, for the 5 years preceding that decision, said base layer never left my pack, in temperatures from 20 below to 40 above and every level of exertion. Why? Because I've found that if I take off a damp base layer, that base layer is not going to be useful for the remainder of my trip. It is dead weight. Instead, I try first not to sweat, but failing that (as sometimes happens), I've found I can easily dry any amount of moisture from my base layer (which is very thin) by simply donning a fleece vest or other light insulating layer for the last 20 minutes of my hike, and everything dries out painlessly.

More appropriately than ever, YMMV.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I am watching this thread with intense jealousy of all you fine people who can be outdoors and moving and not generate any sweat. That is simply impossible for me shy of crawling at a snail's pace and so I adopt a strategy of dealing with the inevitable rather than wishfully trying to prevent it.

I.e. I bring multiple layer changes for when I am done with the majority of the up. This problem plagues me on bicycle and XC too.

Tim

Well, I am a slow hiker, will find any excuses to stop and take a photo or have a chat, and rarely have a destination I am trying to reach.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

Well, I think we all have a tendency to project what works for us onto everyone else. I could be wrong, but I suspect JFB has done a fair amount of experimenting with his layering strategy and his system works well for him. Let's also remember that there's a lot of subjectivity in words like "damp" and "compromised."

I personally think changing out of one's base layers on a windy summit and letting the wind dry oneself is absolutely ludicrous. But I'm fairly confident sierra is not new to this game, and his system has worked well for him under a variety of challenging conditions. I wouldn't dream of telling him he's "doing it wrong."

Personally, I haven't bothered to bring an extra base layer in my pack for the past 5 years because, for the 5 years preceding that decision, said base layer never left my pack, in temperatures from 20 below to 40 above and every level of exertion. Why? Because I've found that if I take off a damp base layer, that base layer is not going to be useful for the remainder of my trip. It is dead weight. Instead, I try first not to sweat, but failing that (as sometimes happens), I've found I can easily dry any amount of moisture from my base layer (which is very thin) by simply donning a fleece vest or other light insulating layer for the last 20 minutes of my hike, and everything dries out painlessly.

More appropriately than ever, YMMV.

Well said. I didn't mean to imply he was doing it wrong, it has worked for him.

I still wouldn't recommended it as a good idea for a novice.

 

[DougPaul]

Well said. I didn't mean to imply he was doing it wrong, it has worked for him.

Such tactics may generally work out OK on a day trip when everything goes well, but if one becomes immobilized one has to wait around in wet clothing. And on a multiday trip, one's clothing would most likely become progressively wetter.

Not a justifiable risk, IMO.

Doug

 

[TJsName]

I am watching this thread with intense jealousy of all you fine people who can be outdoors and moving and not generate any sweat. That is simply impossible for me shy of crawling at a snail's pace and so I adopt a strategy of dealing with the inevitable rather than wishfully trying to prevent it.

I.e. I bring multiple layer changes for when I am done with the majority of the up. This problem plagues me on bicycle and XC too.

Tim

I am in the same boat. I find the shirt change to be quite invigorating!

 

[nartreb]

Tim and TJ,
The trick is to strip down just slightly faster than you warm up. Absolutely nobody sweats when they're cold.
If you've stripped down to a T-shirt and you still feel like you're about to start sweating, take off the T-shirt. You don't need it for insulation at the moment, and this way it will stay dry for when you do need it.

 

[TJsName]

I am frequently down to a T-shirt in winter. I prefer having a shirt on under my pack in all seasons. I still sweat a lot even when I am cooling a lot. I think parts of my body stay warmer (armpits) and pump out a lot of sweat even if my arms are cool.

 

[DayTrip]

Somebody once said "be bold, start cold" - but that only works for me when I'm with a group that's totally prepared and will go from setting the parking brake to hiking up the trail in under three minutes, and then set a fast pace. Normally, the first thing I do when I park is put on my down jacket, hat and gloves. Then I make last-minute determinations about what gear to bring (snowshoes? full crampons? ice axe?) or wear (insulated pants?), put on my boots, double-check my pack, have a final drink or snack, and maybe a pee break... that's enough time to get horribly cold if I'm not warmly dressed.

I keep a regular old winter coat in my car for that. When I get to trailhead I'm usually dressed in the layer combo I expect to be walking in early on. I keep the jacket and some gloves on while I mess around and get all my stuff together. When I'm ready to head out I ditch the jacket in the car, lock it up and head out. That way I'm only cold for a few minutes until I get heated up walking.

I find it very irritating stopping and adjusting stuff constantly. I did Sandwich Mtn THU as a "layer training exercise". It was around 15-18 deg with maybe 5-15 mph winds at top. I started in a Techwick 1 base layer, a merino wool mid layer and my hardshell with the pit vents fully unzipped and jacket unzipped half way down front. I had a merino wool beanie and my nitrile disposable gloves. Wound up going all the way to summit like that. Hard shell stayed dry and my other layers were not damp (other than sections of back where backpack hits). Adjusting zippers and taking hat on and off was enough for this particular walk. I did sweat pretty good in spots but I never got a chill. So I'm going to use this as a benchmark and starting point to adjust for temps. Having layers with pit zips seems to be extremely useful. It seems that the bulk of the heat and moisture I generate is in the underarm, upper arm and side of body (and of course back where pack is but I have no idea how that can be fixed).

Just for the sake of argument and to test breathability of the shell (new hard shell I just got) I left my down jacket on over this same set up descending. Back at car the shell interior was dry but the merino wool mid layer was very damp (as I expected it would be). The down jacket was also pretty damp in the area where the backpack hits.

 

[DayTrip]

I also find it interesting that wool has come up so much in this thread. Back when I was new to cold weather hiking I often went in a heavy wool sweater and my ski jacket. After several years of messing around with fleece, down, Primaloft and other high tech products I find myself going "back to the future" with basic wool products. That old wool sweater I had was heavy but it sure cut the wind and I don't ever recall being cold in it, even when I was sweating like a pig. Go figure.

 

[DougPaul]

I also find it interesting that wool has come up so much in this thread. Back when I was new to cold weather hiking I often went in a heavy wool sweater and my ski jacket. After several years of messing around with fleece, down, Primaloft and other high tech products I find myself going "back to the future" with basic wool products. That old wool sweater I had was heavy but it sure cut the wind and I don't ever recall being cold in it, even when I was sweating like a pig. Go figure.

Wool insulation is more tolerant of moisture than the other forms of insulation. But it is still degraded when wet.


General notes:
* Use a thin base layer so that when you strip down to it, you have a minimum amount of insulation and so it will dry faster if it becomes damp.
* Preferred fabrics for the base layer are polyester or wool. (The wool can be blended with a small amount of nylon or polyester.) Both should be highly breathable. (BTW, silk has moisture handling properties similar to those of cotton and therefore is not a good choice.)

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

I am frequently down to a T-shirt in winter. I prefer having a shirt on under my pack in all seasons.

Me too--short sleeve in warm weather and long sleeve in cold weather. I often pull the sleeves up above my elbows when wearing the long sleeve shirt to dissipate a bit more heat. The long sleeve shirt is also quarter-zip.

Back when I started this game, the baselayer of choice was fishnet. (First cotton and then wool fishnet--solid wool was also available and used by some. Polypropylene and then polyester solid fabrics followed soon after.) Fishnet protected one from one's pack, was extremely breathable when uncovered, and warm when covered. Also called string or mesh long underwear. (It was originally used by (European) North Sea fishermen.)

One of the rationales for using fishnet was that if you got it wet, there wasn't much wet fabric against your skin. Some of the heavy sweaters might find it worth trying.

If you want to try some, it is a bit hard to find these days (out of hiking fashion...). A search found some at Wiggy's: http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=35 (Haven't tried this brand myself.) I also found some intended for cycling.

BTW, fishnet bottoms might still be useful in 3-season rainy weather to keep wet pants legs off one's skin.

Doug

 

[jniehof]

Since we seem to have degenerated into a general layering strategy discussion, the secret of my success (as a fairly heavy sweater) is 1) vests 2) half a vest (which my regular hiking partner said should feature a lobster). When you have your pack on, you don't need layers on your back, and you can put it on/off without dropping pack, or even stopping. Learning to put a jacket on and off with the pack on is also useful, but lessso in winter, since you're unlikely to be wearing a jacket that will fit in a pocket.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

FYI I am often in just a single layer polyester t-shirt in winter. I am unwilling to go any slower because A) not much of a cardio workout and B) I would get home so late as to cost me family points I don't have I will repeat what I have said often before - bringing arm warmers and a short-sleeve shirt works as well as anything can. I wear the buff around my forehead and wring it out before it gets too drippy.

Tim