Highways in the Whites

[jniehof]

(Split from the stimulus bill thread)

Funny that you should suggest this idea, as before the 1964 Wilderness Act and the designation of the Pemi Wilderness later in the 1960s, there was a strong lobbying effort to build a road right through the Pemi, on top of the Wilderness, Shoal Pond, and Ethan Pond Trails, through Zealand Notch, to join the Zealand Road. These were some of the same lobbyists who succeeded in getting the Kancamagus Highway built a few years earlier.

Pemi was designated in '84 (NH WA). Just sayin' Great Gulf was under the original WA, and Presi/Dry River under the original Eastern WA.

The scope of the mountain highways "planned" (or at least pipe-dreamed) is staggering. Blasting through the Castellated Ridge is a personal "favourite." Gene Daniell occasionally mentions this sort of thing in interviews...he probably knows as much about these plans as anyone.

I do imagine what it be like if the Kanc were closed, or never had happened. Would certainly be a very different experience, although I suppose few "standard" 4k approaches would be modified. Hancocks the most, and the Lincoln Slide route for Owl's Head would likely have stuck around.

I also wonder why the Kanc was put on the route it is (largely on top of a trail cut by the AMC to connect the Waterville Valley and Conway trail systems) while the Livermore Road slowly fizzled. Increased importance of 3 as a connection to the population centers of the south?

 

[giggy]

dude - if they can blast a tunnel through Mont Blanc from Italy to France, pretty sure they could do one on the castellated ridge.

which is more impressive:

http://image06.webshots.com/6/6/64/74/79166474fGcJvU_ph.jpg

or

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1221/1387766449_896e1d6e64.jpg?v=0

 

[Mattl]

The highways in some ways are sad, yes it makes it easy to get into the mountains and just jump out of the car and hike, but it also changes the feeling of the White Mountains. Looking off Franconia Ridge to the east and you see virtually no signs of man, and then below you to the west in 93, with cars busting though. Such a large roadless area as the pemi feels different because of the highway even though it could be the same size if say a road half as busy and major was there, in the same location. For instance up in northern Maine many consider it the only true semi wilderness in New England, yet besides the area around Katahdin, most of the roadless areas in the Whites are far bigger then anything in Maine, because of all the logging roads everywhere, but does it feel like it? You can be on a major highway one minute in Lincoln, going through a tour trap ski town, then in a huge unbroken forest where one can walk 15 miles without hitting a driveable road. I think that the feeling of the forest is drastically changed by its surroundings, like the Pemi. Say we took out 93, the Kanc, 302, and 16, and replaced them with either trails, or small roads with a speed limit of 35, some dirt. What would the Whites feel like then?

-Mattl

 

[ferrisjrf]

Say we took out 93, the Kanc, 302, and 16, and replaced them with either trails, or small roads with a speed limit of 35, some dirt. What would the Whites feel like then?

The Adirondacks?

 

[peakbagger]

A more recent proposal is Interstate 92 from Waterville Maine to New York roughly following the RT 2 alignment for the majority of the route. NH and VT are opposed and prefer to just upgrade RT 2 with passing lanes as needed, but the topic comes up every few years driven by construction interests and economic development folks on the Maine and Canadian end as this route would be the shortest route between the Maritimes and Southern Ontario.

One of the possible routes through the whites discussed was to route the new interstate through the Pond of Safety area in Jefferson and North of Berlin then across Success Township and eventually tie back into the RT 2 corridor in the Rumford area.

 

[TDawg]

Or how about if I-93, instead went the other proposed route when it was being built? Following (roughly) the path of the present day power line, past Bog Pond and through a low point in Kinsman Ridge north of Mt. Wolf over into Easton. Leaving Franconia Notch how it was...

Franconia maybe would of had the same feel of Evans Notch, just a winding country road. (if that's how it was, I'm too young to know from experience ) Or maybe like Crawford? But, I can't complain because the present day Franconia Notch is all I've ever known.

 

[RoySwkr]

According to one of Paul Doherty's books, the Kanc was pushed by Forest Supervisor G.L.Graham who wanted a similar road built up the Wild River valley. I can remember when the Kanc was gated during snowstorms and only plowed as time permitted, after some years of not being plowed at all. Wilderness philosopher Phil Levin suggested that if all trailheads on the Kanc were closed it would make the Pemi area seem much wilder.

According to one of the logging railroad books, the Zealand RR was chartered as an ordinary RR not a logging RR with the thought that it might become a mainline to Concord - surely it nearly connected to the Pemi lines. During the debate about I-93 in Franconia Notch various alternates were studied including Zealand Notch and even 13 Falls, but the powerline corridor N of Mt Wolf was probably the most serious.

 

[TDawg]

...and even 13 Falls, but the powerline corridor N of Mt Wolf was probably the most serious.

13 Falls?!? Would they have tunneled under Garfield?

 

[--M.]

According to one of the logging railroad books, the Zealand RR was chartered as an ordinary RR not a logging RR with the thought that it might become a mainline to Concord - surely it nearly connected to the Pemi lines. During the debate about I-93 in Franconia Notch various alternates were studied including Zealand Notch and even 13 Falls, but the powerline corridor N of Mt Wolf was probably the most serious.

Just finishing that book up now; you beat me to it (http://vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=28463).

Apparently, the quality of the construction of the East Branch & Lincoln and other later roadbeds was so high that ignoring them was impossible when it came time for the Kanc to be put in. It follows EB&L lines past the hairpin and the Swift River Railroad down to Conway.

The Wild River lines were the earliest and least durable (it is indeed a wild river); maybe their roads wouldn't have stood up like Henry's.

It's funny how these roads evolved. Can anyone comment on the drivers behind getting the Kanc done? The logging RRs came specifically because of the NH legislature's decision to divest itself of "all the state's public lands for the benefit of a 'literary fund' for common school maintenance" (Belcher, p. 4). What drives the debate? Clearly, it was in neither case a literary fund.

 

[David Metsky]

Franconia maybe would of had the same feel of Evans Notch, just a winding country road. (if that's how it was, I'm too young to know from experience ) Or maybe like Crawford?

Rt 3 through Franconia Notch was the major thoroughfare, so it got a lot of traffic. There were/are 18-wheelers going through there at all hours so it never was a quiet winding country road. Frankly, what they did with the parkway isn't really a major change, IMO.

 

[Tom Rankin]

Rt 3 through Franconia Notch was the major thoroughfare, so it got a lot of traffic. There were/are 18-wheelers going through there at all hours so it never was a quiet winding country road. Frankly, what they did with the parkway isn't really a major change, IMO.

Good point, how often do you see an Interstate highway slow down to 45 and become one lane?

 

[rocket21]

how often do you see an Interstate highway slow down to 45 and become one lane?

Pretty much everytime I use 495 or 93 during construction season

 

[DougPaul]

Franconia maybe would of had the same feel of Evans Notch, just a winding country road. (if that's how it was, I'm too young to know from experience ) Or maybe like Crawford? But, I can't complain because the present day Franconia Notch is all I've ever known.

When I started hiking in the Whites (1971), Rte 3 ran through Franconia Notch. Whitehouse Bridge parking lot was just a dirt lot off Rte 3 (located near where the bike path passes under 93).

Rte 3 was just 2 lanes, paved. (You can sample a bit from Woodstock to the new Whitehouse trailhead (just N of the Flume). There is another section on the east side the junction of Rte 18 and Rte 93 (exit 34C) heading N for a mile or so before it dead ends. It has some nice views and is part of the bike path.)

So 93 mostly means more traffic plus heavy trucks and parking lots set back from the road. Current Evans Notch is much wilder than Franconia Notch was back then.

Doug

 

[rocket21]

Current Evans Notch is much wilder than Franconia Notch was back then.

Wha?

 

[wardsgirl]

Yup! Back in the day, young wardsgirl's parents would head for the mountains and visit places like Clark's Trading Post and the Old Man of the Mountains. That was in the late 60s. The road was definitely a narrow one! Does anyone remember when the present 'parkway' was built? I seem to remember driving on a gravel surface for awhile.

 

[David Metsky]

Does anyone remember when the present 'parkway' was built? I seem to remember driving on a gravel surface for awhile.

Construction started in 1982 and finished in June 1988.

 

[Hillwalker]

Landslide

I remember when my dad took us all up to see the landslide that closed Franconia Notch in 1948. Now whenever I take the Greenleaf trail I have memories of that scene. The trail crosses the slide path and you can still tell.

My dad also was on the crew that cut the right of way for the Kancamagus back around 1946 or so. My grandfather and I would go fly fishing up in there while he cut trees for 12 hours. Then we would all ride home together and eat native Brookies for dinner.

It's getting so that if it weren't for flashbacks I wouldn't have any memories at all

 

[Mattl]

Hillwalker did you fish the streams or ponds? Lily Pond used to be a very good trout pond before the Kanc ruined it. They let the dam out and it filled with sediments.

 

[Trail Bandit]

I remember my father taking me fishing in the Swift River along the Kanc. back in the early 1950s. We had an old Model A Ford (I think), with a rumble seat (I am sure). It was a dirt road and it ended, going up the east side of the hill, at a logging camp. The trout fishing was great. I still have a few memories where there was film in the camera. I think life was better then. There were no people to speak of.

 

[Hillwalker]

Hillwalker did you fish the streams or ponds? Lily Pond used to be a very good trout pond before the Kanc ruined it. They let the dam out and it filled with sediments.

I remember my father taking me fishing in the Swift River along the Kanc. back in the early 1950s. We had an old Model A Ford (I think), with a rumble seat (I am sure). It was a dirt road and it ended, going up the east side of the hill, at a logging camp. The trout fishing was great. I still have a few memories where there was film in the camera. I think life was better then. There were no people to speak of.

Matt: I was only eight or nine years old, I have no idea now, where we fished then. It was all woods to me. You know, I don't remember being bothered by Black Flies then. I do remember not being to have lights on at night much because the no-see-ums would come into the house and make you feel like you were on fire. No window screens in those days.

Bandit: I agree that life was better then and I still rarely speak to people We lived in Conway in the White Farm House beside the Saco River covered bridge until 1949.