Hiker Rescue - I think they didnt have a map

[skiguy]

The overall question is do we want to the mountains (wilderness, trails, outdoors, etc.) to adapt to the populace, or the populace to adapt to the mountains.

Thankyou for saying this. I was typing my post while you were posting. I think you and I may agree.

 

[sierra]

For what's its worth, a similar scenario of incidents was occurring on the Huntington Ravine trail. They erected sign at the beginning of the trail warning of the impending difficulty and it seems to have cut down on Rescues. While I agree with the premise of not "Dumbing down" the mountains, you either want to prevent SAR from going out or you don't. The loop is a magnet for goofers and every time it gets done by some internet whiz kid, their post generate another crop of inexperienced hikers on the loop. It's worthy of an exception, imo. They might consider a more informative sign at the bottom as well.

 

[DayTrip]

This is exactly the problem. We now live in a society where everything has to be digitized for us to feel safe. Or at least that is what our mired media wants us to believe. Going for a hike use to be about unplugging. Is it the duty of the folks in the hiking community with half a brain to protect the others that have no brain at all? The environment is now supposed to be adapted or is it the hiker whom should be responsible for adapting themselves. First it is another sign. Then it is QR Codes. Next thing you know we have Dominos Pizza being delivered by Drones to Guyout. If we facilitate lack of self reliance in one place expectations of the ignorant will only become more demanding and the whole experience just gets more dumbed down. Therefore ruining it for the people that are out there for the rustic experience which it should be.

That is the dilemma. I also want that remote, wilderness experience when I hike. I don't like buildings on summits, don't use the huts for water or shelter, etc. I tend to seek out hikes and times where I see a minimal amount of people. I'd be totally fine with no signs anywhere. That's how I enjoy it. My Way does not necessarily equal "right" and Their Way isn't necessarily "wrong". These are opinions.

Again I don't think you're looking at it from the point of view of the populace. I think dug's statement would more aptly describe your position if it said "Do we want the mountains to adapt to the populace or do we want the populace to adapt to my point of view of the mountains". You assume your way of enjoying the mountains is the "correct" way to enjoy the mountains. The mountains are just there. They are not concerned with how we go about using them.

I used a QR Code sign as an example because it could very small and inobtrusive to the overall view versus a giant billboard style sign like JustJoe and others posted. And it could potentially alleviate a constant drain on SAR time and resources. An example where the technology everyone here seems to dread could improve the overall views of the wilderness by not using billboards, engage the younger generations and their obsession with their phones, and maybe "trick" them into looking at a map that the QR code brings up - an opportunity to learn and ask questions about what they are seeing.

And what about at a trailhead? Imagine if you could scan a QR code in the parking lot, it locates you on a map, it scrolls through LNT and 10 essential basics like "Sunset is at 7:18PM today. Do you have a headlamp or flashlight?", it could electronically log you into a trail register much like the paper ones used in Baxter and the Catskills and provide valuable info to SAR when they do have to go out, provide detailed usage statistics for trail maintenance, etc, etc. There are a lot of possibilities to solve or greatly reduce many of the nagging problems out there. And if you're an old curmudgeon and don't like Big Brother tracking you with all this new fangled technology? Then don't do it. Just walk right by the tiny barcode sign and carry on with your day.

There are tons and tons of websites, forums, social media, etc out there for newbies to gather info and plan a hike and learn. Clearly this method does not work for a lot of people or we wouldn't be reliving the same mistakes over and over again. I think the only way to get to many people is at the point of entry to the woods -i.e. the parking lot. They have to go there to start the hike. Having volunteers at trailheads is a useful but also highly dependent on volunteers and limits the locations they can be. Technology can be present everywhere.

 

[skiguy]

That is the dilemma. I also want that remote, wilderness experience when I hike. I don't like buildings on summits, don't use the huts for water or shelter, etc. I tend to seek out hikes and times where I see a minimal amount of people. I'd be totally fine with no signs anywhere. That's how I enjoy it. My Way does not necessarily equal "right" and Their Way isn't necessarily "wrong". These are opinions.

Again I don't think you're looking at it from the point of view of the populace. I think dug's statement would more aptly describe your position if it said "Do we want the mountains to adapt to the populace or do we want the populace to adapt to my point of view of the mountains". You assume your way of enjoying the mountains is the "correct" way to enjoy the mountains. The mountains are just there. They are not concerned with how we go about using them.

I used a QR Code sign as an example because it could very small and inobtrusive to the overall view versus a giant billboard style sign like JustJoe and others posted. And it could potentially alleviate a constant drain on SAR time and resources. An example where the technology everyone here seems to dread could improve the overall views of the wilderness by not using billboards, engage the younger generations and their obsession with their phones, and maybe "trick" them into looking at a map that the QR code brings up - an opportunity to learn and ask questions about what they are seeing.

And what about at a trailhead? Imagine if you could scan a QR code in the parking lot, it locates you on a map, it scrolls through LNT and 10 essential basics like "Sunset is at 7:18PM today. Do you have a headlamp or flashlight?", it could electronically log you into a trail register much like the paper ones used in Baxter and the Catskills and provide valuable info to SAR when they do have to go out, provide detailed usage statistics for trail maintenance, etc, etc. There are a lot of possibilities to solve or greatly reduce many of the nagging problems out there. And if you're an old curmudgeon and don't like Big Brother tracking you with all this new fangled technology? Then don't do it. Just walk right by the tiny barcode sign and carry on with your day.

There are tons and tons of websites, forums, social media, etc out there for newbies to gather info and plan a hike and learn. Clearly this method does not work for a lot of people or we wouldn't be reliving the same mistakes over and over again. I think the only way to get to many people is at the point of entry to the woods -i.e. the parking lot. They have to go there to start the hike. Having volunteers at trailheads is a useful but also highly dependent on volunteers and limits the locations they can be. Technology can be present everywhere.

Your making some pretty big assumptions about my opinions but I guess that is what discussions are partly for. Sorry I disagree with your ideas but you seem to think your way is the right way, but I still disagree. I do see your SAR argument, but you have only created numbers within your own mind to support your hypothesis. You have thrown out some pretty theoretical numbers which again are only ideas within your own opinions that you think are right. So, let's not have the tea kettle calling the pot black. Don't get me wrong about the SAR Community as quite a few of them are and have been my friends over the last five decades and I am quite in tune with their gig. I am truly appreciative of their efforts and support their cause financially on a regular basis. So therefore, I am concerned about their wellbeing. With that said they sign on to the task well knowing what they are getting into. They know what they are doing and work together as a team and look out for themselves with a very high success rate if not impeccable record. So, could you please tell me the last time the rescuers had to be rescued? Can you tell me the last time there was serious injury or loss of life among the SAR community? Extremely low if almost nonexistent especially in comparison to the average hiker which I can confidently state without hesitation in a non-hypothetical manner. So let's agree to disagree. I will not be commenting on this thread any longer.

 

[DayTrip]

Your making some pretty big assumptions about my opinions but I guess that is what discussions are partly for. Sorry I disagree with your ideas but you seem to think your way is the right way, but I still disagree. I do see your SAR argument, but you have only created numbers within your own mind to support your hypothesis. You have thrown out some pretty theoretical numbers which again are only ideas within your own opinions that you think are right. So, let's not have the tea kettle calling the pot black. Don't get me wrong about the SAR Community as quite a few of them are and have been my friends over the last five decades and I am quite in tune with their gig. I am truly appreciative of their efforts and support their cause financially on a regular basis. So therefore, I am concerned about their wellbeing. With that said they sign on to the task well knowing what they are getting into. They know what they are doing and work together as a team and look out for themselves with a very high success rate if not impeccable record. So, could you please tell me the last time the rescuers had to be rescued? Can you tell me the last time there was serious injury or loss of life among the SAR community? Extremely low if almost nonexistent especially in comparison to the average hiker which I can confidently state without hesitation in a non-hypothetical manner. So let's agree to disagree. I will not be commenting on this thread any longer.

So I was driving to Michigan today and spent about 13 hours in my car otherwise I would have replied to this sooner. I certainly don't require any kind of apology. You're more than welcome to call me a f#$$ing jack*** right to my face and it won't bother me at all. I'm good that way..... We've had enough conversations on VFTT at this point that I feel I understand your point of view pretty well (even if I am not adequately restating it in my own words), have learned some things and got some great advice from you If I am offending you in some way by being pesky that is not my intention at all. I would just reiterate that I pretty much agree with just about everything you are saying about the fact that people should take the time to learn what they're doing, we shouldn't create fail safes for every possible idiotic situation, etc., etc.

All I am saying is that whether we like it or not it's happening. SAR teams are getting woken up in the middle of the night and wasting time and resources plucking these idiots out of the woods. I'm not saying they are getting hurt or killed. But they're wasting time and resources on the same mistakes made by the same types of hikers. I am not suggesting I have a white paper ready to publish with a specific game plan in mind for deploying all this technology or I am sure it would work and I referenced the fact that I did not go back and tally every incident and what happened. The Huntington Ravine issue and the GRT wrong turn are rescues that repeat themselves consistently every year as others beside myself here have referenced here.

So if the people that you feel don't belong in the mountains (your words in #29 above not mine) are going to the mountains anyway and if we are willing to entertain a different perspective on the problem there might be some technological innovations that could be used to teach these people the things you want them to know, help SAR be more efficient, improve the wilderness experience with less signage, etc . Was just thinking out loud really about possible ways to solve or at least reduce these problems with the new tools we have at our disposal now and create the educated and informed hikers we all want to see in the woods and maybe give SAR a break too. Anyway.....

 

[JustJoe]

I used a QR Code sign as an example because it could very small and inobtrusive to the overall view versus a giant billboard style sign like JustJoe and others posted. And it could potentially alleviate a constant drain on SAR time and resources. An example where the technology everyone here seems to dread could improve the overall views of the wilderness by not using billboards

No one here ever mentioned putting up billboards, never mind in wilderness. My suggestion is only to add some additional signage to the 5 problem trail-heads, already covered by the WMNF trail steward program. Those 5 trail-heads, already have a good sized Kiosks. A separate and easily smaller one dedicated to safety and navigation, could be helpful. QR codes could possibly be helpful but it depends on the type. The information you'd like to be able to access with one, would require a Dynamic QR Code and that would require internet service. For just text, and a URL web link to more info., would only need to be a Static QR Code and no internet service is required. However, if you got a URL to a web link such as a map, weather, etc. from it, you will need internet service to open it. Relying on a good internet connection, is not good idea. It is pretty clear, that the US Forest Service and or the NH Fish & Game Dept., do not want hikers to relay on electronics to stay out of trouble.

 

[richard]

Just me, but I think that you guys should stop bickering and knit picking and trying to out do each other !

 

[Cumulus]

There is a large sign on the Long Trail North that reads, "Long Trail North does NOT return to the day hiking parking lots in Huntington or Duxbury".

There is, or at least was in 2015, a similar sign in the Belknaps.

 

[ChrisB]

Correct and there are lots more especially around Mt Major.

And these signs have helped a lot of confused rookies find their way home.

 

[TCD]

I'm not a big believer in signs; many people ignore them. But signs like these do make sense, especially if they are large, simple, and clear.

I have seen these in other parts of the country as well.

(Over here in the Adirondacks, we have forests of unmaintained signs with dozens of lines of info in fine print, half of which is incorrect (sign distances are notoriously wrong here). All these signs here accomplish nothing, which is part of the reason I don't believe much in signs.)

 

[DayTrip]

No one here ever mentioned putting up billboards, never mind in wilderness. My suggestion is only to add some additional signage to the 5 problem trail-heads, already covered by the WMNF trail steward program. Those 5 trail-heads, already have a good sized Kiosks. A separate and easily smaller one dedicated to safety and navigation, could be helpful. QR codes could possibly be helpful but it depends on the type. The information you'd like to be able to access with one, would require a Dynamic QR Code and that would require internet service. For just text, and a URL web link to more info., would only need to be a Static QR Code and no internet service is required. However, if you got a URL to a web link such as a map, weather, etc. from it, you will need internet service to open it. Relying on a good internet connection, is not good idea. It is pretty clear, that the US Forest Service and or the NH Fish & Game Dept., do not want hikers to relay on electronics to stay out of trouble.

Yah so I don't literally mean a billboard. Just exaggerating for effect. I meant a large concentration of signs creating an eyesore on the landscape. And I get the potential tech problems of needing versus not needing internet. Like I said, just thinking out loud and trying to take the point of view of the people getting lost, not our more informed point of view. The way we approach hiking is not the problem...

 

[egilbe]

This same thing happened a couple years ago to a group from Mass. I attributed it to being so many signs in Mass, that it becomes 2nd nature to ignore them. That sign on top of Lafayette is pretty damn hard to not see. On a clear day, you can see the hut, so probably on a rainy, misty day, maybe they had their faces down and just motored along.

 

[Will]

A couple/few Summers ago I had a string of passing 5 "lost" groups early evening on that ridge over the course of 3 trips. More than the total I had previously encountered over several decades! I never regarded them as emergencies, perhaps wrongly treating them too lightly. In one case a person was having bad cramps and even giving them my extra flashlight & batteries was not going to work, so I settled them down sheltered for the night as best possible with my mylar blanket. It seemed I was handing out mylar blankets & headlamps like party favors that Summer. But I admit I continued my own journey without even a twinge of conscience.

It never even occurred to me to try to contact "rescue" (I did have a cell phone packed away, I'm surprised though to learn there is even service on that ridge) or to abandon my trip to babysit.

Maybe the weather on this occasion was bad, or there were other mitigating circumstance I missed in my quick read, but WTH? I am not without empathy, but discomfort seems to me a fair price to pay for one's mistake. A Grand Canyon Ranger told me in a conversation a couple of months ago, "people have the right to die." Emergency rescues are for emergencies, not for guaranteeing comfort.